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Discussion Starter #1
Yes, I know every one likes that slow powder, H110 and W296, But I had to try some LILGUN.       <<<<WOW>>>> First thing I found is that it is smokier out the barrel.    Could be I just never paid much attention any other time.  I used 23.5 grains behind a 250 cast and a 260 cast.
 Sorry no chronograph so I am not sure of fps.
 Cases about fell out of the Redhawk cylinders. Also, the cases were clean. No smoke on out side of cases like h110.
I think H110 gives me a falls pressure signs due to its gathering of soot on the out side of the cases.
   I feel LILGUN might be cleaner all the way around.  I only shot a hand full of it, so I need to do more testing to back this up
               I guess I will have to go shooting some more, Darn…    
                Has any one else compared the two.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Scout,

I'd recommend using the "Search Our Site" if you have an interest in rather or not previous posts may have covered a particular subject.

The search for Lil'gun found 9 or 10 references, one of which I started back in May.  The following address will take you to that particular post -- and using "Search Our Site" option (left hand side of page) will find the others for you.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=5&topic=99&start=0

Hope some of the previous posts are of interest to you.

Dan
 

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Scout,

How do you relate pressure signs to sooty cases?  I have found htis to a condition of the case not obtaining most of the pressure prior to releasing the bullet.  Gases escaping around the bullet and going between the case and cylinder wall account for sooty cases.  I have shot many Unique loads that came out as clean as when loaded by applying a heavy crimp.  

The testing I have done has been in my .454s and I have found it not to be much different than like charges of WW 296.  Similar charges gave similar velocities.

I would recommend getting a chronograph.  Soot and primers are just not a reliable means of reading pressure in a case.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks Doc, I read every post I can find, and I browse pages at a time. Love this info, what I was looking for, and I did not specifically mention is loads references for the 45 colt.
  Sorry, my fault, was thinking, and not typing.  But thanks for the references.    

  Ms. Hitman, I don’t believe I am not using enough crimp, or neck tension to get soot.
 I use lee crimp, and tons of neck tension.
   I do agree, I need a crono, just wonder which kid don’t get shoes this month.
  I get soot with loads form 20grains to 26.3 over 250lrfn. no mater what.  So, I can’t figure that one. I have used 2400 also, and don't remember soot out side cases there.
 

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All, are at least most of my expertise in firearms is in the rifle field of calibers.
However, a case geting soot on the outside is usually a indication that the chamber is a little big or a very slow powder (or combination of the two) is in use. I have experienced this in several rifles. However, (again) I have never had it create any problem!! I understand your concern, and it's a great question, but not to worry!
If enough gas leakeage is present it can dent case walls from the outside. This is an area of concern that should be addressed by a gunsmith!
Changeling
 

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changeling, in over35yr of reloading I never heard of gas leakage denting cases on the outside. Can you expound on this , please. Seems to defy physics.
 

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RugerNo3, I new dam well when I wrote that, someone would want verification. I just whish I had found the pictures before I wrote. It took me about an hour to find pictures I could tell you about or you can look at.
"Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading", Third Edition, page 45.
I have seen other pictures/references but I can't remember where.
The condition usually happens on reduced loads of slow powder creating low enough pressure to allow gas to flow back around the neck. An oversize chamber would of course make the condition worse.
I hope this helps. I have never had dented cases, but soot, you darn right, 2400 is not a clean burning powder by any stretch of the imagination.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Rick Jamison also had a picture in a fairly recent Shooting Times where he said that some case necks that were overly hard did not seal the chamber properly, and caused a dented shoulder.

Can't remember the month, though.  Yes it does seem a little difficult to fathom.  But if a fired case comes out of the chamber with a dent in the shoulder.... well, I can't think of any other explanation!
 

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Mike and Scott, that is it, as far as information I can put my hands on and tell you guys about. However, I have never tried "Lil Gun", and would really appreciate you geting back to me Scott after you get more data/experience with it.
One little bit of advise or information I can give you is this, H110 and Winchesters 296 powders seem to be one and the same. Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember hearing that Hogden makes 296 for Winchester. What I have noticed after a lot of pounds of each powder is everytime I worked up a load with one, the other would do exactly the same, give or take a grain or two!
Now we are only talking about one gun here (44 Mag.) so I could be full of you know what, but I don't think so!
Certainly don't just take what I say as gospel because I am "NOT" 100% sure.
Changeling
 

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Primex makes W296 for olin corporation. W296 is suppose to be what comes off the top (grade A) and H110 is from the same batch but not quite at Olin standards (grade B) and hodgdon buys this from them. Basically the fluctuation you see in the data pertains to them as sometimes one may be a half or so grain difference. IF I could find it Primex technology has a web site. ST. Marks FLA.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well, I know that I get a build up of soot in my cylinders in a short time. Enough that I have to push the cartridges in.  That is why I feel I get a false sence of pressure signs. I have been using H110, and not w296.  After reading Jims post, there might be a little difference.    
   I have not gone to the range to do any more testing, hope to do so in a couple of days.     Scout.
 

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Scout, after reading your two previous post I noticed two things you mentioned.
1- you use lee crimp! factory crimp die or roll crimp? the reason I ask is if you really crank down on the handle when applying crimps with roll crimp die you actually put a small bulge just above the crimp on the case and this bulge will ease what ever neck tension you did have. in which is just as important as the amount of crimp. now instead of good tight bullet pull and MODEST crimp you have only a crimp that is containing the tension in which is only 1/16" instead of 1/4" or more of tension between the seated bullet and case wall!!
2- you mentioned tons of neck tension! how did you come to this conclusion? take a couple of cases and run them through your sizing die and then make sure there are no burrs on inside of case mouth and take your calipers and measure the inside diameter of sized case. if you get a reading of .449" or larger neck tension is not enough. .447"-.448" is about ideal. can you see the outline of lube grooves and base of bullet when its seated in the case?
3- H110/W296 needs resistance to burn properly! and three things affect this greatly. 1-crimp, 2-proper bullet pull, 3- tight barrel cylinder gap helps also.
As MS hitman stated sooty cases are not means of judging pressure. So DONT keep increasing loads hoping it will disappear.
Was this testing done with new cases?
What diameter are your cast bullets sized to?
And last but not least give us a measurement of your expander plug diameter.
I hope this helps you some. give us some feed back on your research and maybe with all the great minds on this board we will get your problem on the improving side.    Have a nice day.        Jim.
 

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I did a little more research and this is what I found.

I emailed a Mr. Steve Faintich, he is the marketing manager and gave me the following information.
"H110 and W296 are the same powders, any variance between the two throughout the years was because of slight lot to lot variations." The powder is made in St. Marks Powder facility in Florida like Jim said.
Darn, it only took me about  15 years to figure this out!!
Changeling
 

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Changeling,

I've got two more revelations for you then.  Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP38 are the same powder.  

WC820(a surplus powder) is the same, for all pratical purposes, as Winchester 296 and H-110.
 

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Hitman, thanks for the info. I am not familiar with WC820 at all. When you say surplus or you talking war surplus or what? If war surplus, I have heard that war surplus powders vary considerbly from lot to lot. Is this true
Changeling
 

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All powders vary from lot to lot.  That's why it's best to work up your loads when you buy a new can of powder  from a different lot and why I buy powder in 8 lb kegs.


Jeff Bartlett at www.gibrass.com has military surplus powders for sell.  He also supplies information on which load data to use.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Jim, I use a lee factory crimp, Starline brass, new, once, and twice fired.
  I have to believe the reason for so much soot, is due to the case hardness, and clearance in case to cylinder.
The sized inside diameter, is .445 and the diameter of bullet is .452  
 After measuring this, I might hone the die a little.  
  The inside measurement of my cylinder is .483.    After loading up the brass, outside diameter of neck is .475.   I am actually making a small void around the case; I am using Starline, a thick, stiff brass, I am sure I have created a soot maker. My best description of the shape is hourglass.

Brass can’t expand to create a gasket. I feel I am also work harden my brass.
 The faster burning powder expands the brass to seal the area making a better gasket.

My next question is what is the more correct diameter of the die?  
This way I don’t make oddly shaped ammo.  
      SCOUT.....
 
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