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Discussion Starter #1
Is anyone using the LBT 200gr FN/gas check in any high performance hunting loads strictly for the M-610 revolver, either in standard 10mm, or in a 10mm Mag. conversion? Would like some comments/feedback on this bullet/gun combo, such as chrono numbers, powders used, special loading techniques, etc. I have developed a loading technique just for the 10mm in the wheelgun, using 180gr XTP'S and Win 180 JHP's, but haven't used any hunting grade cast bullets.........yet! <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

This sounds like THE ultimate bullet for deer, pigs, black bear, and(?)......... Right?

Mr.610
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Oh yeah I can help.  I was loading this bullet in the .40 S&W a while back.

Blue Dot is highly recommended.  There is published data for 200 gr. jacketed and just start with that.  No special reloading techniques were needed other than to figure out what OAL would feed best.  Not a problem in a revolver, obviously.  I'd just stick with max SAAMI OAL to start with and go from there.

One thing that you need to check is what size the throats are in your revolver.  S&W's can run a little on the tight side.  Have that information when you order and you'll be all set.

A friend did load this bullet in his 10mm with the same powders but I can't remember what sort of velocities he got.

For that size hole in the barrel, yeah, it is probably as good as it gets.  I did put down a pretty good sized wounded hog with mine, at powder burn range.  It did the job.
 

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Mr610,
I can't help with loading data, but had a 610 once upon a time.  I think it was the first year Smith put them out.  I couldn't find any full moon clips for the longest and those half moon clips were driving me crazy, so I sold it and bought a 629.  Too bad too, I think that 610 was probably the finest factory revolver I've ever had.  I killed a couple of coyotes with it and one deer.  I used the factory loaded 180's.  Thanks for the memories and for reminding me to never put a price on a gun that you do not want to sell...
 

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I have loaded this bullet for my Glock 20 w/ 6"KKM bbl.  I worked up loads with Blue Dot, 800X, and Steel powders.  I used CCI 350 LP MAG primers 1.265" OAL and shiny new Starline Brass for these loads. 5 shot average, 35F,  elevation:5000ft

12.0 Steel - 1380fps
12.5 Steel - 1395fps
13.0 Steel - 1412fps
11.0 BD - 1336fps
12.0 BD - 1435fps
12.5 BD - 1460fps
10.0 800X - 1380fps
10.5 800X - 1440fps
11.0 800X - 1468fps

It took a LOT of work to get the Steel data. I had to "guess" at a starting load, then work up from there.  There is NO DATA for Steel for anything but shotgun loadings.  The fellow at Alliant told me in October that I might be the first person to use Steel for 10mm and .357MAG.  The 610 is a very strong gun, but I would recommend that you work up to these loads by dropping a grain and increasing by .5gr at a time.  Each gun is different, best of luck.
-Mike
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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McNett,

Those loads are with the 200gr WFNGC?  That is WAY over the top for Blue Dot with that bullet weight....

If I read your post right that was at 35 degrees F, right?  If so.... not sure I'd be touching those off in warm weather.
 

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Yes, you read the post correct.  I have shot them at the local indoor range as well for accuracy testing (70F).  With my setup, I have had no signs of overpressure with these loads (6"KKM barrel).
PS- I start to see pressure signs with these loads using 200XTP's.  The XTP is .679" and the BTB 200WFN is .611".  I believe that this difference in OAL is crucial in keeping pressures in check.  Like I said in my original post, back off and work up your own load.
-Mike
 

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Keep in mind too when comparing loading data, not only the bullet length as pointed out, thus more case capacity with an equal weight cast bullet, but that a well lubricated, hard-cast gas-checked bullet will have a lower friction coefficient than does it's jacketed counterpart.  Hence less pressure with equal powder charges when compared to a jacketed bullet used in ballistic tests!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hey guys, thanks for the response! <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

1400+ fps with a 200 gr LBT/GC from a Glock???  Hmmm...... <!--emo&:0--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->

McNett, nothing personal, (I'm a natural born skeptic) but....... I'm curious, how long have you been handloading? I don't mean to flame you, but I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't at least wave a caution flag concerning the loads you're posting.
I say this because of the potential for many inexperienced handloaders to attempt to duplicate these loads without comparing your data with data from a published source. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

I have done a bit of load development for the 10mm cartridge using the 610 as a vehicle, and with the jacketed bullets I use, (180 XTP's & 180 Win JHP's) I use a loaded OAL of 1.325", for a couple reasons. First, since the 10mm cartridge is somewhat short for the length of the cylinder, I get a little less bullet jump without the bullet making contact with the throat. Second, I get a little more room for powder, and also, I believe this length would be too long to chamber in an auto-loader, (and probably wouldn't fit in the magazine.)

I have two 610's from the first run in 1990, both are 6 1/2" and my accuracy has been nothing short of outstanding (especially with a 2X Burris), although velocities are not as high as I'd like to see, they are higher than any published chrono data. And, I am using heavier charge weights than any of the loading manuals recommend. <!--emo&:0--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->

Aleyeska, sorry to hear that you let the 610 slip away. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> I got my first one about 5 years ago after watching it lay in "my" dealers case for nearly six months. I got tired of seeing it lay there collecting dust. This was before Smith re-introduced the Classic version of the 610, and not much had ever been written about them in any of the "off the news-stand" gun-zines......... Nobody had any idea how good the 10mm cartridge really was, because it had gotten bad press from the LEO community, and was thought to have punishing recoil. In the N frame S&W, even with my heaviest loads, recoil is so light, you'd actually call it pleasant! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> After my first trip to the range, I commented to my dealer, that if he ever got another 610 to call me, I'd buy it, sight unseen. In less than a year, I ended up with two of them, and at a price that would make many grown men cry!

And, to Mike and Marshall; Thanks for echoing my concerns on the safety side of this issue! Afterall, we as experienced handloaders owe it to any newcomers to promote safety as the top priority in this hobby we all enjoy so much........... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--> If it ain't safe, it ain't fun, in this hobby, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hmmm.......... let's see if this works........ for your viewing pleasure. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

WOW!!! Didn't know it would come out that big......... How can I prevent that from happening in the future??? <!--emo&:0--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->
 

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Hi, Mr 610:
  You need an image viewer & editor called IrfanView and you can download it here for free.
http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/stories/info/0,10615,38759,00.html

   Check your image's size before you post it and resize it to 640 maximum width if it's bigger and save this copy to disk. Then attach the resized copy to your  post.  This copy is 320 max. width.

  IrfanView has lots of neat features. Have fun.

Bye
Jack



<!--EDIT|Jack Monteith|Feb. 24 2002,10:25-->
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Jack. I think I can resize with MS Picture It! as well. I did a little more investigating after posting the pic....... I think (?) I'm getting a handle on it now..... Time will tell, huh?
 

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Mr 610,
  I appreciate your concern for me, but I have been loading for the 10mm for more than 10 years.  I know my business when it comes to loading for the 10mm.  You may or may not (as I said before) use my loading data as a tool.  It will not bother me at all.  BTW, using a 6"KKM bbl on my Glock 20, I have been able to achieve higher velocities with less pressure signs than I could with my former 610 w/6.5"bbl.  For the last time: WORK UP  YOUR OWN LOADS.  I did and I am very happy with the 10mm.
-Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #13
McNett,
Thanks for not being offended by my comments. I'm just glad to find someone else like me, who has a real passion for the 10mm cartridge.

I'd always had a (repressed?) interest in the 10mm before I got the 610, and when I chanced upon the gun I hesitated for a while, then in an uncharacteristic burst of genius, I went back to the shop (where it had been collecting dust) and bought it. Liked it so well, that I told the shop owner that if he ever got another to call me. It was almost a year later, but he did take another one in trade, and I now have it too! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

The first one now has a 2X Burris and will consistently shoot sub 2" groups @ 50yds, and has a few favorite loads that flirt with the magical one inch-six shot group.

I will be getting some of the Beartooth 200gr LFN's w/ gas check to experiment with as soon as the New England weather goes on spring break, and will post my results here on this board.

Thanks again for the insight. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

P.S., Are you "throwing" charges from your measure with 800X? If so, what kind of measure? I got some of it, but the stuff meters like Quaker Oats, and thus, I haven't used enough of it to get a good evaluation of it's performance. The IMR data indicates higher velocities than any other published data I've seen for any powder in the 10mm. Also, I do have a chrono and am a fairly advanced handloader as well.............
 

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Now that I've had a chance to relax,....I feel much better. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
800X has always been dismal from my Dillon and my Lee powder measures.  I only use 800X for HOT loadings in the 10mm.  Because of this, I hand measure each load (good idea for ANY powder when loading hot).  For most of my range work, Power Pistol, AA9, or Blue Dot work well in my Dillon.  Enjoy your 10.
-Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #15
MCNETT,
Just for kicks, what were you getting, performance-wise from your 610? What powders gave the best results (accuracy & velocity)? Did you ever try the Beartooth 200 gr. in the 610?

I like to compare notes with as many people as possible, since the 610 is nearly a separate entity, at least from the standpoint of published load data.

Thanks,
Mark
 
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