Looking for a Longer Case with the Same Head Size as the PPCs and 7.62X39
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Thanks for the leads gentlemen.
I am thinking of either a 6.5 or 7mm X 45mm round or more simply, since it would require only a rebore, a 7.62mmX45mm round for a woods companion and truck/airplane gun in the little CZ 527 carbine. After running the concept through a case design and internal ballistic program, I am unsure whether it is worth more development because you in essence are only taking a different route to a 7mm Waters or 30-30.
Fireplug
I am thinking of either a 6.5 or 7mm X 45mm round or more simply, since it would require only a rebore, a 7.62mmX45mm round for a woods companion and truck/airplane gun in the little CZ 527 carbine. After running the concept through a case design and internal ballistic program, I am unsure whether it is worth more development because you in essence are only taking a different route to a 7mm Waters or 30-30.
Fireplug
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721 Posts
7.62 X 45
Fireplug,
The Czech vz-52 battle rifle fires the 7.62 X 45 round. Here are the case dimensions:
Case length: 45mm
Neck diameter: .334"
Shoulder diameter: .412"
Base diameter: .441"
Rim diameter: .440"
Cartridge OAL: 2.360"
For more information visit:
www.mauser98.com/vz52.html
Fireplug,
The Czech vz-52 battle rifle fires the 7.62 X 45 round. Here are the case dimensions:
Case length: 45mm
Neck diameter: .334"
Shoulder diameter: .412"
Base diameter: .441"
Rim diameter: .440"
Cartridge OAL: 2.360"
For more information visit:
www.mauser98.com/vz52.html
Fireplug -
You sure do have some interesting projects. Believe it or not, the 224 Weatherby has a .430 rim size, at a 1.93 case length. Of course, its belted, but you can't have everything. This case will generate 2000, 2200 or 2400 FPE with .264, .284, or .308 bullets, respectively.Not a lot different from rounds based on the 22-250 or 300 Savage.
If you push the shoulder back 0.30 inches and trim to 1.62 inches, you can still get 1700, 1900 and 2100 FPE, respectively.
Also, the 6.5X54 and 6.5 Carcano are close with a rim size of about .450.
Of course, there are many .473 rims that can be milled down to .440. Once you are set up, this milling is really no more complex than trimming - I am surprised it is not done by wildcatters more often, especially going from .473 to .440. A 0.33 reduction in rim will generally not affect feeding. The straight stack CZ magazine should not be that difficult to widen.
You sure do have some interesting projects. Believe it or not, the 224 Weatherby has a .430 rim size, at a 1.93 case length. Of course, its belted, but you can't have everything. This case will generate 2000, 2200 or 2400 FPE with .264, .284, or .308 bullets, respectively.Not a lot different from rounds based on the 22-250 or 300 Savage.
If you push the shoulder back 0.30 inches and trim to 1.62 inches, you can still get 1700, 1900 and 2100 FPE, respectively.
Also, the 6.5X54 and 6.5 Carcano are close with a rim size of about .450.
Of course, there are many .473 rims that can be milled down to .440. Once you are set up, this milling is really no more complex than trimming - I am surprised it is not done by wildcatters more often, especially going from .473 to .440. A 0.33 reduction in rim will generally not affect feeding. The straight stack CZ magazine should not be that difficult to widen.
loader,
Thanks, I really like the idea of light compact rifles that do not give away to much performance in return for their handiness. This concept, however, just can not get to a performance level that I am OK without more pressure than I want in the tiny CZ527. The .416 TAS is held hostage to some silly left over import sanctions from the Balkans conflicts, since Charles Daly can not import more Mini Mausers yet.
I will just have to wait for the import problems to get fixed, and/or the SSA M70.
Fireplug
Thanks, I really like the idea of light compact rifles that do not give away to much performance in return for their handiness. This concept, however, just can not get to a performance level that I am OK without more pressure than I want in the tiny CZ527. The .416 TAS is held hostage to some silly left over import sanctions from the Balkans conflicts, since Charles Daly can not import more Mini Mausers yet.
I will just have to wait for the import problems to get fixed, and/or the SSA M70.
Fireplug
Joined
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9,796 Posts
Fireplug:
Tell me of the .416 TAS.
Just wondering, Iv;e been converting 7.62X39 cases to .401WSL cases (basically they are blown out straight after a little lathe work to the head to make them semi-rimmed).
Tell me of the .416 TAS.
Just wondering, Iv;e been converting 7.62X39 cases to .401WSL cases (basically they are blown out straight after a little lathe work to the head to make them semi-rimmed).
ribbonstone.
Check the thread addressed below on this forum for the bacground on the .416 TAS. Two changes may not be noted there: case length is now 1.92", and the potential change to .411 (.411 TAS) to eliminate the need for reeming or turning necks and to have useable jacketed bullets available.
Fireplug
http://shootersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3108
Check the thread addressed below on this forum for the bacground on the .416 TAS. Two changes may not be noted there: case length is now 1.92", and the potential change to .411 (.411 TAS) to eliminate the need for reeming or turning necks and to have useable jacketed bullets available.
Fireplug
http://shootersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3108
Joined
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9,796 Posts
Read the thread...interresting, seems like a good round.
In my case, discovered that 7.62X39 will from into nearly perfect .401WSL case, but do need a little lathe work.
Use a stripped STEEL .41mag. die and size the 7.62X39 case as far as possible (up to the solid head). Case will look belted. Lathe off the belt to make the case slightly semi-rimmed. Fire form to straight. the length is fine as formed, just need to trimm to an even lenght. It's a lot easier than starting with .35rem. cases as is the normal recomendation.
The semi-rim actually does the headspacing on the .401WSL.
Sectioned, the web is a bit thicker than original .401 cases and the volume is about (depends on case brand) 5% less.
Experimentation showed that .410" bullets (.41mag.) could be used.
Just as an odd though, the round would fit fine in an SKS or AK action, although the double stack magazine would probably need some work.
In my case, discovered that 7.62X39 will from into nearly perfect .401WSL case, but do need a little lathe work.
Use a stripped STEEL .41mag. die and size the 7.62X39 case as far as possible (up to the solid head). Case will look belted. Lathe off the belt to make the case slightly semi-rimmed. Fire form to straight. the length is fine as formed, just need to trimm to an even lenght. It's a lot easier than starting with .35rem. cases as is the normal recomendation.
The semi-rim actually does the headspacing on the .401WSL.
Sectioned, the web is a bit thicker than original .401 cases and the volume is about (depends on case brand) 5% less.
Experimentation showed that .410" bullets (.41mag.) could be used.
Just as an odd though, the round would fit fine in an SKS or AK action, although the double stack magazine would probably need some work.
Gentlemen -
Again, an interesting thread leading to new ideas.
The 240 was selected because it had a .473 case head and a belt, allowing the use of the full diameter of the case to accomodate bullets that would otherwise have headspacing problems. Neat idea.
Now we find that handloaders can ADD a belt to just about any unrimmed, unbelted case. This idea is revolutionary to me and opens more doors to wildcatting than I can think of at one time.
A large pile of straight cases sporting belts. Just for starters, the '06 can go to .454 inch diameter as an outside dimension at the mouth, which means it can hold any of the .429/.430 bullets made. This case will hold 56 grs of water with a .430 bullet seated 0.40 inches, and deliver 4500 fpe with any appropriate powder/bullet combination. Any 308 Win length case will give you 37 grs of capacity and 3500 fpe.(all 52,000 CUP).
A straight sided 284 will accept .458 bullets and you get a 450 Marlin with a .473 case head. I personanlly would prefer .451 bullets, to get at all the 45 cal pistol bullets and the 45/35 black powder sabots - 3000 fps with a 200 gr psp .358 bullet is within easy reach.
Because of the high energies and velocities, some of these examples will need custom bullets held to 1.2 inches in length, but that's part of the fun. Off the shelf pistol bullets will work fine for reduced loads, and .400 cast bullets will work even at high velocities with 45/40 sabots. A 1 in 16 inch twist rate would be the best compromise for the .430, .451 or .458 barrels. None of these need to be ove 19 inches long to burn all of the fast powders involved, and a couple will work with 17 inch bbls.
Again, an interesting thread leading to new ideas.
The 240 was selected because it had a .473 case head and a belt, allowing the use of the full diameter of the case to accomodate bullets that would otherwise have headspacing problems. Neat idea.
Now we find that handloaders can ADD a belt to just about any unrimmed, unbelted case. This idea is revolutionary to me and opens more doors to wildcatting than I can think of at one time.
A large pile of straight cases sporting belts. Just for starters, the '06 can go to .454 inch diameter as an outside dimension at the mouth, which means it can hold any of the .429/.430 bullets made. This case will hold 56 grs of water with a .430 bullet seated 0.40 inches, and deliver 4500 fpe with any appropriate powder/bullet combination. Any 308 Win length case will give you 37 grs of capacity and 3500 fpe.(all 52,000 CUP).
A straight sided 284 will accept .458 bullets and you get a 450 Marlin with a .473 case head. I personanlly would prefer .451 bullets, to get at all the 45 cal pistol bullets and the 45/35 black powder sabots - 3000 fps with a 200 gr psp .358 bullet is within easy reach.
Because of the high energies and velocities, some of these examples will need custom bullets held to 1.2 inches in length, but that's part of the fun. Off the shelf pistol bullets will work fine for reduced loads, and .400 cast bullets will work even at high velocities with 45/40 sabots. A 1 in 16 inch twist rate would be the best compromise for the .430, .451 or .458 barrels. None of these need to be ove 19 inches long to burn all of the fast powders involved, and a couple will work with 17 inch bbls.
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