[cayugad]

Yesterdays shooting really got me thinking. If these small powder charges can shoot 200 yards and still get a pass through, or 18 inches and still expand, how do they penetrate?

So I decided to try the White Ultra Mag which is a .504 caliber at the 50 yard line today.

Rifle: White Ultra Mag .504 caliber. 28 inch stainless steel barrel 1-24 twist.
Scope: Nikon Pro Staff 2-7x32mm with Warne QD rings
Powder Tested: Triple Seven 3f, 2f, and Pyrodex P
Projectile: Bull Shop Conical 460 grain .504 diameter pure lead
Caps: RWS 1075
Weather: 82º sunny, very windy
Range tactics: No Swabbing except when changing powders. Load and shoot as fast as I want.

The information the White shooters told me got me wondering. I know my Ultra Mag likes Pyrodex P and it likes Triple Seven 2f. But I normally shoot a strong charge. So what happens when we reduce things a little.

I started my shooting with Triple Seven 3f. I loaded on a clean barrel. I fired two shots and was surprised at the spread. Since my rifle normally likes 80 grains of Triple Seven 2f, I backed the charge down to 65 grains and changed (without swabbing) to Triple Seven 2f. I then shot five more with that and the 460 grain Bull Shop conical bullets.

The group was very acceptable. So what about penetration?

I do not like newspaper or water bottles. All that stuff I have to clean up. So I grabbed two chunks of poplar firewood. Poplar is a soft wood, but this stuff is not aged and its a little water logged, so it is very dense.

As this picture shows, the 460 grain Bull Shop conical bullet with only 65 grains of Triple Seven made exactly eight inches of penetration into the wood. Now that kind of impressed me. A later test into the same block before I split it, 65 grains of Pyrodex RS made 7-5/8th inches of penetration.

So I swabbed the rifle clean and decided to shoot the 65 grains of Pyrodex P. I loaded the slip fit conicals very easy for the first shot, but after the rifle fouled a little there was not quite as easy a slip fit. Yet, it never ceases to amaze me how these slip fit conicals can shoot so well.

After the rifle was so kind to drill that group, I decided paper was boring and it was time to cut some wood.

This chunk of firewood was on the ground. It had a short limb sticking off it. The penetration test chunk was balanced on it. So I decided to cut the limb sticking out... off. It took two shots with those big conicals to blow that limb off the stump. I was all smiles.

The clean up of the White was easy. Three patches of Rusty Duck Black Off and a couple dry patches. In fact it cleaned so fast, I forgot to take it out of the stock. This rifle is treated with Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner. Could that have something to do with it?

Anyway, it was a great day and the penetration test was good. I know that this would do the job easy. The White Rifle is an amazing shooting system for sure.

 

[pisgah]

In today's shooting world, 'way too much press is given to velocity. It's nice to have for long shots because it gives what is commonly callled a "flatter trajectory" -- but mass, i.e. bullet weight, and momentum do a whole lot.

460 gr. is a LOT of mass, and if you get that bullet moving, even at less than 1000 FPS, you will be astounded how much stuff it'll penetrate at absurdly long ranges. Expansion? Heck, who cares?

 

[greyfox]

Thanks for sharing Cayugad. For my50 cal. renegade I use hornady 460 gr. hbfp great plains bullet. Makes me wonder why I'm using 90 gr. of powder.

 

[deputy154]

I have been shooting 65 grains of RS in my Hawken Hunter 50 cal behind T/C Maxi-Ball because it groups so well and I can shoot more between cleanings. Thanks for testing what I have not had time to do yet!!

 

[tacklebury]

I've had a couple issues with lower powder charges only with pyrodex/bp, because the deer see the cloud and duck. Literally, using 60gr. pyrodex p and a .490 patched round ball last ML season, I had a doe that reacted quickly enough to only lose some hairs when she ducked it like they sometimes duck arrows. Seemed amazing to me, but I've jumped back to 80 gr. as my minimum for hunting at 100 yards. I'm not sure if this is common, but if the round ball moving faster was able to be ducked, I figure my great plains bullet moving slower would be also. I still use 60gr. in my 10-1/2" barreled Kentucky pistol back-up, however, as more does nothing to increase velocity and just smokes more. I'm testing with 777 now and will see how that goes this upcoming season.

 

[markkw]

Tacklebury,

You're problem isn't the load, it's the gun, too much lock/ignition delay.

 

[markkw]

In today's shooting world, 'way too much press is given to velocity. It's nice to have for long shots because it gives what is commonly callled a "flatter trajectory" -- but mass, i.e. bullet weight, and momentum do a whole lot.

460 gr. is a LOT of mass, and if you get that bullet moving, even at less than 1000 FPS, you will be astounded how much stuff it'll penetrate at absurdly long ranges. Expansion? Heck, who cares?

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The typical gun rag hype assigned to trajectory and velocity is enough to make the argument that a 55gr spitzer from the .220 Swift would be all that one would ever want in a big game rifle ... problem is that "FACTS" just happen to get in the way of "HYPE". This is one of my biggest pet peeve topics, as we see the gun rag sales hype constantly push lighter & faster rifle bullets, we also see the same BS pushing heavier and slower shotgun loads - both situations being the polar opposites of ballistic performance fact. But, then again, all that going in the opposite directions of fact allows for the sales hype of "fast follow-up shot" to play in ... of course, if the gun/load was worth shooting, one wouldn't need a follow-up shot anyway.

The explanation is easy and one that was learned way more than a century ago through actual range testing and field experience. With mass comes momentum and momentum is what provides penetration. Energy numbers mean NOTHING, the extremely misplaced and misguided application of energy as related to common firearm projectiles is a total waste of time and print. Back to the point that while one can obtain X,XXX ft lbs of energy from an itty bitty bullet moving at high velocity, I find the one who makes such an argument is not willing to stand in front of a PO'ed rhino with just one round of itty bitty thus proving my point that the whole conversation is an utterly worthless waste of time.

Ever wonder why the original .45-70 load contained a 500gr bullet? Answer is simple, "Because it worked." Sure, there were plenty of experimental loads pushing handgun-size bullets in the sub-400gr range yet they have faded away into the dust of history as the failures they were, at least until they were dug-up again in recent times by those who somehow think the the laws of physics have changed to conform to the sale hype BS.

On a different forum there was a recent discussion on how the .243win is now considered only "marginal" for whitetail deer hunting and should be used by "experts only". Had that statement been made 30 years ago, the speaker/writer would likely have caught a backhand smack for talking such rubbish yet the statement is accepted in today's world ... why? Again, the answer is simple, "Lack of a suitable bullet." Years ago, one could purchase a round nose 6mm bullet in the 120gr range that performed exceptionally well on deer-size game yet they have gone away in favor of the itty bitty speedy bullets that are barely suitable for varmints let alone anything considered big game. Look at what I consider the first step in the failure of Winchester, the .375 big bore. Now there was a round that could have turned the tide for Winchester but the sales-hype shift from "what works" to "what sucks" is what created the utter failure named ".375 Big Bore". Had the round been loaded with an acceptable 330-350gr FN bullet instead of the worthless 200gr RN, it's likely Winchester would still be alive and kicking today.

Factor in the fact that 99% of all big game critters are taken at ranges of 125yds or less and it can quickly be determined that one does not need a .300 MegaMagnum pushing a 120gr bullet at warp 5 speeds - the lowly old .38-55 burning black powder is more than capable of completing the task without having to worry about trajectory. Also factor in that the majority of big game hunters are not capable of maintaining consistent accuracy beyond 125yds without the use of a sitting rest; then add in the fact that the majority of hunters are in-capable of making accurate range estimations beyond 50yds and we can quickly conclude that the majority of problem lies with the hunter and not the gun or load.

Velocity is a mere illusion, numbers on paper to make one "feel" like they're getting something special ... more than a 150 years of history tells the truth, not some prostitute advertisement writer at a gun rag.

 

[cayugad]

I saw this happen to me. I had booked an elk hunt. Talking to the guide I discussed what rifle I should bring. I told him I usually shot a Remington 742 Woodsmaster Semi automatic carbine 30-06. You'd of thought I slapped him in the face. He said the minimum caliber he liked to see was a 7mm mag (which 25 years ago was a horse of a caliber most thought). So I purchased my 7mm Mag in a Ruger M77, put an expensive (at that time) Tasco World Class scope on it and practiced out to 400 yards with it. My elk walked in at about 80 yards and stood broadside. I could have killed him with a 30-30 IMO. And my 30-06 would have been a cake walk with a 220 grain Remington Round nose (remember them for deer in the woods.. great bullet).

Muzzleloaders were the same way. When I first started we killed deer with roundball and 80 grains of powder. When Tony Knight first told about a rifle that would shoot 120 grains of powder and a pistol bullet, we were shocked. Never going to sell, I remember saying. Boy was I wrong. But you know, it never killed them any more dead then that old roundball we used.

I went to the White shooting system because of their ability to shoot conical bullets. After seeing what that conical (one of my favorite conical bullets is a 500 grain) will do, I have no doubt that many people are just over gunned. Although, I do not take long shots. All my shots are close range.

 

[tacklebury]

Tacklebury,

You're problem isn't the load, it's the gun, too much lock/ignition delay.

I suppose that's possible, but there was no discernable delay in my eyes, but in the heat of the moment who knows.

 

[markkw]

I suppose that's possible, but there was no discernable delay in my eyes, but in the heat of the moment who knows.

You may not have noticed the delay which could have resulted in you loosing the POA. Another option is that the critter was in fact moving before the sear tripped. Depending on the range, that could also add to the delay time between sear trip and the ball getting to where it's going but accounting only for the slightly lower velocity of the ball, the critter would still need to be in motion or it simply would not have enough time to react. I can assure you, even with a heavy conical leaving the muzzle at a mere 1150 fps, a critter within 100yds does not have enough time to react before getting plowed.

Of course the factoid of critter movement that you bring up is an excellent example of why I stress the fact that one needs ample amount of error factor built into the equation in order to account for at least some of the Murphey factor. Thus, one who is pushing the limits of viability also pushes the limits of ethical hunting whereas a combination that is highly dependent upon exacting projectile placement in order to be sufficiently effective should, application wise, be considered unreliable. IOW, one who takes a pot shot on an elk at 200yds with a .25-20 would not be considered ethical. What really twists my twig are statement such as those made by the likes of Toby Bridges, Jim Shockey, Randy Wakeman and the likes whereas they are pushing load combinations that are, at best, marginal for deer-size critters to 150yds yet they insist on making erroneous claims of their effectiveness on much larger critters at ranges of 200yds and beyond. Not only are such claims unethical, they are totally erroneous being based solely upon numbers on paper while completely disregarding known ballistic facts known from actual field experience of more than century ago.

The above is not a flame on you, a 60gr charge under a .50 PRB is sufficient within acceptable range limitations - your example was just a great foundation upon which to stress the point of error factor. ...... not that I would hijack a thread or anything .....

 

[hailstone]

Another way you can verify what markkw is saying. Let another person shoot the rifle and you stand behind him listening very intently. You will hear the hammer hit a split second before the rifle fires if lock time is long. I've done it with my flintlock rifle because of my suspessions about a delay in ignition. Turned out a simple adjustment in loading eliminated the delay.

 

[tacklebury]

Will try that too, thanks Hailstone. 8)

 

[Kev7griz]

I suppose that's possible, but there was no discernable delay in my eyes, but in the heat of the moment who knows.

Did you follow through and not jerk at the moment you pulled the trigger?