[John Kort]

I just purchased the Lyman 457122 mold and plan to begin casting with it after Christmas. These will be for my 45 Long Colt Express rifle...a Browning Low Wall. Thanks for all the data and experiences shared in this great thread.

Alan,
Welcome to the .45 Colt 457122 club. That bullet should work really well in your Low Wall. Once the mold is up to temperature and is casting well filled out bullets on the driving bands, if the nose is not completely filled out, use a propane torch for a few seconds to bring the pin up to temperature.

Once the nose is filling out well, you likely would not have to use the torch again.

Looking forward to hearing your results........

John

 

[John Kort]

Slim, to borrow an old cliche' "You just just can't keep a good topic down."

Here's a pic of some other heavy weight 45 Colt bullets along with the 457122.

John

 

[John Kort]

It's been almost 2 years since the last post. Thought I would bring it up again in case someone had an interest..........

John

 

[John Kort]

MC, did you get your Colt rifle?

William,
It looks like Marlin Collector has not posted anything since May 10th, 2006. I hope he is still with us.

John

 

[John Kort]

MC, did you get your Colt rifle?

William,
It looks like Marlin Collector has not posted anything since May 10th, 2006. I hope he is still with us.

John

 

[John Kort]

Slim,
If you pm your address, I'll send you a .303 Savage Short Range ctg. I'll need to pull the bullet, dump the powder and remove the primer so I can send it to you though.

WHen I get a chance, I think I'll start a thread regarding the "Short Range" cartridges.

John

 

[John Kort]

Slim,
Yes indeed. This was quite a lot of fun and educational. Thanks much for your input.

Glad to hear that you found a .30-30 Short Range cartridge. I don't believe that the factories ever used a "stab" cannelure. I have probably 20+ .30-30 Short Range cartridges and all have the circular cannelure.

Testing the various powders from those SR ctgs. (4.4 - 7.0 grs.), velocities ran anywhere from 1,140 to just over 1,200 f.p.s. effectively duplicating .32-20 b.p. ballistics.

As you may know, Short Range ctg's. were also made for the .25-35, .303 Savage, .32-40, .38-55 & .45-70.

Neat history!

John

 

[John Kort]

Thought I would bring this interesting thread up again since there have been recent interests on heavy bullets in the .45 Colt.

Wow! 4,165 views!

John

 

[John Kort]

Slim,

Quote "Looking at Homer Powleys math via W. C. Davis NRA
Powly has trouble with small cartridge cases and more trouble when they are large bore. The velocity estimate is 1264 fps at 51,086 psi (CUP)."

As you said, " Powley has trouble with small cartridge cases" and this would be one example where the Powley estimated pressure is "way off" since Hodgdon shows the following 45 colt loads for Rugers, TC's......at a 1.68" cartridge length:

325 gr LFN PB
17.0 / Lil Gun / 20,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 /18,100 CUP

360 gr. WLN GC
18.0 / Lil Gun / 29,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 / 28,300 CUP

The seating depth of the bullets is not given, but 20.0 grs. of H110 under a 330 gr. Gould is definitely in the safe <30,000 CUP range.

Does your 457122 weigh 388 grs? That seems a bit heavy.

Happy New Year,
John

 

[John Kort]

William,
Based on yours and my experiences, the magnum pistol primers hold no advantage over the standard primers at the 30,000 psi level. At a lower pressure level there probably would be a noticeable difference.

Interestingly, several years ago when I was wringing out some .44-40 loads using H4227 powder in my newly acquired '73 Winchester (1882), magnum primers gave more consistant results and a 100 f.p.s. advantage in 14,000 p.s.i. level loads (1,250 f.p.s.).

Earlier this year, a friend and I tested some higher velocity .44-40 loads in his '92 Winchester. We found that as the velocity / pressure increased, the magnum pistol primer velocity advantage gradually diminished. At 1,700 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. bullet, velocities were pretty much the same with either primer.

Sincerely,
John

 

[John Kort]

William,

Well I finally had the chance to get to the range this afternoon and shoot some .45 Colt ammunition in my 24" Marlin Cowboy rifle. I positioned the powder to the back of the case on the 296 & Lil' Gun loads ...........

I loaded some 457122's (1.70" o.a.l.) over your load of 18.5 grs. of Lil' Gun sparked by a Remington 2 1/2" primer.
average velocity was 1,529 f.p.s. (100+ f.p.s. faster in the 24" barrel with this load ...... but different powder lot, etc.)

Next were some Lee 340's over 20/296 o.a.l. 2.72"
(I ran out of 457122's .... time to plug in the pot!)
WLP primer - 1,402 f.p.s.
155 Fed . Mag primer - 1,410 f.p.s.
(I though that there would have been more difference than 8 f.p.s..)

Lastly, I tried a capacity load of RL7 (28 grs.) under a 320 gr. RCBS bullet with the 155 primer ...average velocity 1,416 f.p.s.

"This has turned out to be quite a distraction for me. Lots of reading about BP cartridges etc. Great fun."

Amen!

John

 

[John Kort]

William,
Thank you for the added info. Pretty impressive performance.

So what do we call our cartridge...........
I would suggest .45-70-330x1.28
In other words, giving the performance of the .45 with 70 grs. of b.p. under a 330 gr. bullet in a cartridge case that is 1.28" long.

I recently loaded some 'Lil Gun using your load of 18.5 grs. with a 2 1/2 Rem primer under the Gould H.P. bullet for comparison purposes. Now I just need a good day to test them.

To be continued..........

John

 

[John Kort]

William,

I've been away for the past several days. It's good to be back home.

You've been busy! Many thanks for all of the additional info!

"At the COAL of 1.700” you got 19 fps higher velocity with your longer barrel. I guess the powder gasses have done all their work by then." Sounds like that could be, although we are using a different lot of powder and a different chronograph. It would be interesting if you could try your loads in your friends' 24" cowboy to see what the difference would actually be using the same components.

"The bullet is traveling 1315 fps at 60 yards with about 1350 fpe. This is not a bad deer hunting load for up close and fast work." It willwork as well as the old .45-70 b.p. loading with the Gould bullet which, no doubt, accounted for many larger game animals as well.

Yes, the .457 diameter bullet fits nice and snuggly in the case, giving a heavier bullet pull.

I enjoy reading anything that Dave Scovill writes. Thank you for the reminder.

Well, have to get outside and do some yard work......

Thank You again,
John

 

[John Kort]

William,

Thank you for the additional data. Interesting!

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well. If it's hanging on too long start taking 50mg of Zinc and 2 grams of Vitamin C (1 gram Am & 1 gram PM). That will give your immune system some "ammunition" to get rid of the unwanted visitor.

"So at the increased COAL I dropped the velocity 84 fps for W296, 35 fps for H110, and 39 fps for IMR 4227.
I am wondering what the result would have been if I had used magnum primers?"

Almost 1 f.p.s. per .001 inch less of bullet seating depth.
I have been wondering the same thing about the mag. pistol primers. I have been going to try some 155 Federals just to see what the difference would be, but I am currently wrapped up in some .32 Long Colt '92 Marlin and some .44-40 stuff. Perhaps by later October, I will be able to do some testing.

It seems like the more testing we do, the more questions there are?!

Interesting also about the cupped bases.

John

 

[John Kort]

William,

The only reason that I was aware of that data was because over the years I made copies of any worthwhile info about the .45 Colt and put it in a binder, otherwise I would have missed it as well.

Actually, Hodgdon has quite a bit of data on heavy bullets in the .45 Colt on their webpage. Please see
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45coltlil.php

You may already be aware of that and it includes a lot of useful info. It's too bad that the bullet seating dapth is not indicated. The LBT bullets as we know are typically shorter for their weight.

I have found that the 20 gr load of 296/H110 is a good one with the heavy bullets. Back in the 70's I worked up to that load with Lyman's 457192, a 350 gr. bullet, for the purpose of downing those 200 yard 55# Steel rams with my Ruger .45 Colt. The .44 Magnum was about 70% positive using the 240-265 gr. bullets but the old .45 Colt with the 457192 bullet never left one standing!

Ray Meketa from Alaska wrote an article for Handloader in 1974 using up to 300 gr.bullets in the .45 Colt. That article inspired me to begin working with the heavier bullets.

J.D. Jones, noted handgun authority, attended some of those 1970's IHMSA matches at the same club and became interested in the heavy .45 Colt bullet loads I was using. I gave him some bullets to try and a few years later he began marketing bullet molds for .44 caliber for 300+ gr. bullets.

Sincerely,
John

 

[John Kort]

William,

Thank you for all the additional info. Intereting that you are getting over 1,400 f.p.s. in your 16" Trapper with the 457122 bullet ..... slightly more than my 24" barrel produces. Your bullet seating depth is .10" more than mine which would make some difference though due to increased pressure as would different powder lots, primers & brass.

It would be interesting to run your ammunition through your friends 24" Marlin to see what the difference between it and your 16" would be. There may not be that much difference!


To add to your excellent list of references, in Fouling Shot #78 there was a page showing ".45 Colt Cast Bullet Pressure Data".

The list is comprised of loads submitted to Hodgdon Powder Co. by Jim Taylor and John Linebaugh.

Testing was taken in a 7" barrel. The heaviest bullet tested was a 320 gr. LBT. 23.5/ H-110/ Fed 150 primer developed 29,900 CUP and 1,280 f.p.s. The seating depth is not listed but is probably the same as the 330 gr.LBT's that I have which is .42".

Another load they show is with the NEI 310 gr. The same 23.5/ H-110/ Fed 150 primer developed higher pressure....31,900 CUP at 1,316 f.p.s. No doubt it was seated deeper into the case which increased pressures.

Hodgdon Manual 26th edition shows 20.5 / H-110 with a 350 gr bullet (assuming Jacketed) at 30,000 CUP and 1,061 f.p.s. in a 7" barrel.

Sincerely,
John

 

[John Kort]

MarlinCollector,

I have fired, maybe only about 15 rounds with the higher powder charge but did not experience any leading that I could detect. I use w.w.+2% tin alloy not heat treated. I lube with the NRA formula of 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

Perhaps a longer shooting session would lead to leading problems at the higher velocity. The cure for that would be either an upside down sized gas check or a .06" thick polyethylene wad.

I don't think the quicker twist would make much difference and besides with your name, would there be any place for a Winchester in your collection?

John

 

[John Kort]

William,

Hopefully it works well for you. At the 1.71" length I have pushed the 457122 bullet to almost 1,600 f.p.s. with no problems other than increased recoil. I just like the replication of the slower .45-70-330 b.p. load.

My Marlin is an earlier one and has the slower 1/38" twist. At 1,250 f.p.s. there is scuffing at the target. At 1,380 f.p.s. all is well. Interesting that it shoots good at extended distances with the bullet just above full stabilization velocity. I guess it proves that rotational velocity decays very slowly.

I also have the 457191 mold. It's an earlier Ideal one and the face of the front driving band is at a slight angle to help ease the bullet out of the crimp. Like yourself, I have found that it works well in the .45 Colt as does the 457192.

Other .45 molds I have are the RCBS 300 G.C. (320 grs in w.w.), 457192 (350 gr. .45-75 bullet), 457193 (400 gr..45-70 Marlin bullet), 457125, RCBS 400 G.C., Lee340 & 400 gr.

These bullet molds do use up a lot of lead in a hurry!

John

 

[John Kort]

MarlinCollector,

The group sizes are for 5 rounds on an average day. 3 of the 5 rounds are always between 1 1/2 to 2". Best 5 shot group to date was 1.67" @ 100.

My barrel has a restriction under the rear sight, one of these days I'm going to fire lap it. That will probably improve things somewhat. Also, if my eyes were younger, that would help too. A more accomplished shooter could also do better, no doubt.

One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load, the accuracy holds up over longer distances. Some guns may shoot fine @ 100 but at 300 yards, the bullets are flying all over the place. Not so with this load. It works, even at 500 meters!

.45 Colt chambers run a bit larger on the average. I have 3 Ruger Blackhawks and the Marlin Cowboy and that is the case with them.

A friend of mine bought a Winchester '92 in .45 Colt a few years ago. He could not get it to shoot 250 gr. cast or jacketed bullets at all - groups of 3" + @ 50 yards. He is an accomplished Camp Perry competitor and trieda number of different load combinations with no luck.

One day we were at the range and I gave him some of the .457"457122/20/296/.45 Colt to try. They chambered fine and he shot a nice 1" group @ 50 yards with them. He was very happy to say the least.

For my Marlin, I can load the 457122's to about 1.71" long, crimpng behind the front driving band. They will work through the magazine fine at that length.

I have also loaded them to William Iorg's 1.60" length, crimping over the front driving band. Accuracy seems to be about the same either way.

William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets.

John

 

[John Kort]

MarlinCollector,

I have used the 457122 in my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy. It shoots very well with 100 yard groups in the 2 1/2"-3" range if I do my part.

My favorite load is 20 grs./296 for 1,380 f.p.s. which pretty much replicates the old .45-70-330 black powder load.

I have fired this bullet at 300 meters on the NRA steel Javelina and 500 meters on the NRA steel Ram and it holds up well.

Since fired cases from my rifle (crimp ironed out) will accept a .459" bullet with little resistance, I size the 457122 to .457" and shoot them that way.

My rifle's bore measures .4525" so the bullet sizes down nicely going into the barrel and shoots well with no detectable pressure increase.

The alloy I use is w.w. + 2% tin.

Have fun,
John