Shooters Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I purchased an S&W M&P15 Sport 2 back in 2016 and have been using the same ammo since the get go (Tula .223 62gr FMJ Steel Case), with the very occasional Wolf ammo that my son would buy. Approx. 2K rounds of Tula & <100 Wolf rounds.

Shot great right out of the box, 3” groups at 50 yards, open sight, standing with minimal adjustments. Weapon cleaned after every shoot.

About 6 months ago, I started to get some bullet tumbling action. When it started, it was about 1 in every 20 rounds. Would clean the heck out of barrel and bolt carrier group and tumbling seemed to stop for about 50 rounds.

Now, this past week, my daughter was shooting it, tumbling went to about 12 out of 20.

Same day, I used some ammo that I got from a friend, he didn’t know what the characteristics were, but I think they may have been 55gr FMJ 5.56 rounds. Placed 20 rounds with only 1 tumbler.

Rifle has a 1/9 twist, and Tula ammo gave me ZERO problems until recently, no misfires or ejection problems.

After every shoot, gun is cleaned and re-oiled. I am at the edge of the Mojave Desert and our temps can swing up to 110 in summer to the teens in the winter, but temp doesn’t appear to be the culprit.

Does anyone have any ideas/suggestions/solutions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
My money would be on copper fouling build-up, have you tried a chemical copper remover? Sometimes the bore looks perfectly clean but copper fouling has coated the bore. In the worst case scenario a replacement barrel is both cheap and easy to change-Wolf and Tula are rough on barrels.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
37,464 Posts
How many rounds have been through the barrel and what copper solvent are you using?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
531 Posts
Just for giggles,... I would start by inspecting the muzzle/crown. Eliminate that as a possible
problem, and then go from there to bore inspection, and then chamber/throat.

Personally, I don't care for your ammo selection.

just my .02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,887 Posts
Scrub the barrel with a good copper solvent, use a bore guide and be careful to not damage the crown pulling the brush back through they have tendency to unscrew themselves.
Shoot some standard US made commercial ammunition and see if it tumbles. The MP sport 2 is a solid gun, never heard of anyone having problems with them.
Like others have said the Tula ammunition can have issues, most folks that like it are people who do mag dumps inside 50yds, it goes bang nearly every time, other than that.......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
How many rounds have been through the barrel and what copper solvent are you using?
Mike - only a little over 2K rounds, maybe 2200 - 2300. Just using plan old Hoppes 9. I just got in some ChoreBoy pure copper wool that I've heard will help with fouling, as well as will look for a decent copper solvent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Scrub the barrel with a good copper solvent, use a bore guide and be careful to not damage the crown pulling the brush back through they have tendency to unscrew themselves.
Shoot some standard US made commercial ammunition and see if it tumbles. The MP sport 2 is a solid gun, never heard of anyone having problems with them.
Like others have said the Tula ammunition can have issues, most folks that like it are people who do mag dumps inside 50yds, it goes bang nearly every time, other than that.......
Kevin - I shoot with a gun club, don't mag dump (too costly) and any fool can do that. As I said, have shot over 2K rounds and did not experience any problems until last year. I will look for a decent solvent & use the ChoreBoy copper wool I just received. Thanks for the input!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My money would be on copper fouling build-up, have you tried a chemical copper remover? Sometimes the bore looks perfectly clean but copper fouling has coated the bore. In the worst case scenario a replacement barrel is both cheap and easy to change-Wolf and Tula are rough on barrels.
Shooter - thanks for input, I'll look for some decent cleaner.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
37,464 Posts
Mike - only a little over 2K rounds, maybe 2200 - 2300. Just using plan old Hoppes 9. I just got in some ChoreBoy pure copper wool that I've heard will help with fouling, as well as will look for a decent copper solvent.
The Hoppe's will take forever to get the copper out, and the ChoreBoy is for cleaning barrels fouled with lead, not copper. Get a copper solvent. Personally, like the Bore-Tech stuff but at least get something designed to remove copper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,801 Posts
Lots of good copper solvents out there. Sweets 7.62 is one, Barnes has another. Most have ammonia. Be careful of long soaks. Actually, soaking the bore with Hoppes #9 works well for me. But, it takes a week of twice daily cleaning to get thru heavy copper.
You mentioned that your rifle grouped at 3"/50 yards. That's 6 moa and with all respect, truly miserable accuracy.
I don't shoot Russian ammo at paper...only at water filled milk jugs. Suggest you try some respectable 55 grain American factory ammo...if you can find some. If you don't get 1.5 moa groups from a clean barrel, let us know and we can all scratch our heads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
My money would be on copper fouling build-up, have you tried a chemical copper remover? Sometimes the bore looks perfectly clean but copper fouling has coated the bore. In the worst case scenario a replacement barrel is both cheap and easy to change-Wolf and Tula are rough on barrels.
You are certainly right about steel cased russian ammo being rough on AR barrels. I read a study from last year in which a guy had 3 identical AR15's. I do not remember what brand of AR's that they were? His goal was to shoot 10,000 rounds of Tula through one, 10,000 rounds of Wolf through another and 10,000 of M193 through the third. The only AR that got all 10,000 rounds through it was the one shooting M193 and it had minimal misfeeds and failure to fires. It was still shooting accurately as well. The one shooting Tula began to have numerous misfeeds, failure to fire and other problems around 5,000 rounds and it was key holing; barrel shot out. The AR shooting wolf lasted a little longer, to a little over 7,000 rounds before experiencing the same problems with misfeeding and keyholing as the AR shooting Tula. It's barrel was shot out as well.
Decent brass cased ammo is always better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lots of good copper solvents out there. Sweets 7.62 is one, Barnes has another. Most have ammonia. Be careful of long soaks. Actually, soaking the bore with Hoppes #9 works well for me. But, it takes a week of twice daily cleaning to get thru heavy copper.
You mentioned that your rifle grouped at 3"/50 yards. That's 6 moa and with all respect, truly miserable accuracy.
I don't shoot Russian ammo at paper...only at water filled milk jugs. Suggest you try some respectable 55 grain American factory ammo...if you can find some. If you don't get 1.5 moa groups from a clean barrel, let us know and we can all scratch our heads.
Leverite - Thanks for the input. But what I didn't mention is our club only uses open sights, no dots or scopes. We also do not lean on bench or use any rest. I'm also in my mid-60's, so I'm not quite as accurate as I was back when I was 20. I don't hunt, just shoot paper for recreation, so I'm pretty satisfied at 3"/50. Besides, if someone wanted to mess with me, that grouping would do just fine to make someone think twice about approaching.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
676 Posts
Leverite - Thanks for the input. But what I didn't mention is our club only uses open sights, no dots or scopes. We also do not lean on bench or use any rest. I'm also in my mid-60's, so I'm not quite as accurate as I was back when I was 20. I don't hunt, just shoot paper for recreation, so I'm pretty satisfied at 3"/50. Besides, if someone wanted to mess with me, that grouping would do just fine to make someone think twice about approaching.
That's more accurate than military quals (basic rifleman quals, not sniper school), and these days they are using scopes (of some sort) all the time.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
37,464 Posts
Steel CASES are not the problem; cases do not wear out barrels. Steel jacketed bullets (often have a thin copper wash) are what wear out barrels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Mike - only a little over 2K rounds, maybe 2200 - 2300. Just using plan old Hoppes 9. I just got in some ChoreBoy pure copper wool that I've heard will help with fouling, as well as will look for a decent copper solvent.
2k rounds, no copper solvent? You're going to need to buy mineral rights to get that clean!

Be prepared to run a copper solvent patch every few hours for several days. Once broken in it won't foul so bad, but you accomplished zero break in because you didn't decopper, and you have a lot of copper fouling built up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
Try Wipe-Out or Patch-Out to get rid of the copper, but I agree with an above poster that the real problem is the copper-plated, steel jacketed bullets are what's eating up your barrel.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top