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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Don't want to seem like I'm shutting this down before it starts, but these types of things tend to degenerate into name calling, etc.

So we'll be keeping an eye on it, and yes.... we have had many "caliber x vs. caliber y" discussions (arguments) before. I know of what I speak....

Just keep it civil, and on topic.
 

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The 1911 and its infertile offspring have a great following, and for good reason - they are great guns. I own numerous versions of them.

The M9 has its lovers and haters. I'm neither, its a much better gun than the 1911 in a few ways, and mostly equal in others, and in a few ways its inferior. The M9 has much better sights, its better balanced, it has a better designed grip, it has higher capacity and holds an easy to shoot round. The 1911 generally has a much better trigger, although followup shots are single action and the trigger can be made very good with a little work. Most 1911s need some trigger work to be exceptional anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Valid points i know an average 13yr old boy 110 pounds 5'5 kinda skinny that can shoot a 1911 just as fast as any 9mm but then again he can out double tap all but one of the local P.D. and can outshot most of them he's a special case.
 

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Kind of moot if he's not shot a 9mm.

I'm planning a USPSA Open gun right now, its going to be a .40 with an extended threaded 9mm KKM conversion barrel rechambered to 9x21 with a JTG 7 port compensator. 9x21 offers a slight case capacity advantage over the 9x19 so I can make "major" and not risk pressures above 39k psi. I'm running 9x21 because I can fit 28 rounds in the .40 magazine with a 170mm extension. Anyway, the 9 has a lot of advantages and in my game, a bullet hole is a bullet hole. I'm out of the business of killing people for profit and hope I never am in that situation.
 

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Lets see 1911 has been adopted since 1911 but was almost there in 1910. The M9 is nothing but a Walther P38 on steroids that was adopted by the German Army in 1938. Two old well established and realiable handguns. When the US Army decided to replace the M1911A1, I've always said there are three reasons wrong with it.
1. Sights are too small
2. No new guns delivered since 1945
3. Army doesn't teach people how to shoot a handgun. (offensively/defensely)

Been issued multiple guns of each design at times and concurrently. Only time in harms way that I didn't have a M1911A1 was in the First Gulf War where I carried a suppressed M9. Haiti, Iraq 03'-06' had both and during 08' had a 1916 dated M1911 with a SIG 226 as a contractor. Both are as accurate as the shooter mastering it. Have won leg points (working toward my distinguished marksmanship badge) with the M9 just before I retired. Can shoot both accurately out to 100m and was working on the hold over with the M9 out to 300m (because I still spend allot of time in combat zones). Hitting your target with enough penetration and putting those rounds where the will do the job (CNS) is what counts. I've got a soft spot for both and have carried both as a citizen carring legally. Learn to master the trigger, sight alignment and tactics and do it before the bad guy does will bring you home. My son also is issued both and has just finished his thrid tour in Iraq this week. He also likes carrying cocked and locked.


M1911A1 on hip in Iraq during 2004


M9 in Iraq in 2006 during stress shoot.


My 1916 dated Colt in 2008, again in Iraq


CD
 

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CombatDiver, your carry an 94 yr old gun into combat? That's crazy (in a "wow, I would never have expected that" kind of way, not in a "your stupid" kind of way ;) ).
 

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I'm saying if he doesn't have valid scores to show that he's as quick with a 45 as he is with a 9mm we aren't talking about much. I'm talking about well constructed competition courses. I shoot USPSA and we have "Classifiers" that are built to a specific standard that all divisions, pistols, calibers, and shooters shoot under the same conditions. The best shooters in the world shoot 9mm/38 Super for a lot of reasons.
 

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If it were just the M9 and the M1911a, I would go with the 1911 only because I learned to shoot it well while I was in the Army.

These days I find I still like the 45 ACP over the 9mm, but I prefer the SIG P220 over most 1911 services pistols. I do have several Kimbers and a 1 Wilson in collection of 1911s, they all shoot well, the average G.I. will never see that quality of a pistol. I hear the SIG ha sa chance of becoming the Corps or the SEALs pistol.

Jerry
 

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I believe the Coast Guard adopted the SIG. Don't know about the special ops outfits? They were still soliciting different caliber submissions last time I read anything about it?
 

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Unclenik the Coast Gaurd is using .40 S&W now not part of the question. There are rummers that there is a order with Beretta for 50,000 96s for the Army don't know if it's true or not, but it's out there.
 

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Nawth East Moderatah
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I shoot and respect both for their reputation and reliability.
The 1911 is just that, the 1911. Since it's inception it has done the job. find one that you like, and get intimate with it.

the 92 series is surely proven, if not for the round, then surely for the funtion of the firearm. I am NOT a fan of the 'normal' 92 series....they always feel awkward in my hand....not that it's too big, or my hand too small...just awkward. but alas, there was produced, tho not in big numbers, the Beretta Vertec:D
The Vertec was essentially a Beretta 92fs with the grip of the 1911.:D:D:D
Add to the Vertec, Beretta finally got smart and allowed the end user to be able to change the front sight as well as the rear. Trigger pull was shorter, alot like the 1911. they also added a frame rail mounting area, for those that like to mount all that junk on the end of their pistols.

Here's the 92fs, with sexy Italian curves:


And here's the Vertec 92fs, notice the difference in the grip, short of the silly handall that came with it....:
 

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Advantages/disadvantages:
Advantages- M9 holds more rounds and looks sexier. 1911 grip feels slimmer for smaller hands. 1911 has more stopping power per round (real life experience). 1911 doesn't require as much maintenance. 1911 is more durable due to steel frame vs. alloy frame, also stronger for the same reason. Note: The Beretta is not made in .45ACP because the frame can't take the abuse.

Disadvantages- M9 has an open top slide making it more suceptible to debris causing jams. M9 will not function well without lubrication (note attract foreign debris). M9 has had stress cracks develop in frame from hot NATO ammo. The 1911 doesn't house as many rounds or is it as sexy as the M9.
 

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I'm getting to be a cranky old toot. I like steel handguns, I like handgun cartridges that start with 4, and buy, hand load and cast bullets for handgun cartridges that are 45 caliber.
If I run out of ammo with my 1911 I can still beat the the offending individual silly with my steel handgun.

Jim
 

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I'm getting to be a cranky old toot. I like steel handguns, I like handgun cartridges that start with 4, and buy, hand load and cast bullets for handgun cartridges that are 45 caliber.
If I run out of ammo with my 1911 I can still beat the the offending individual silly with my steel handgun.

Jim
Yeah, I forgot the advantage of the steel frame 1911 being used as a club. LOL!
 

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Gentlemen, I have fired the M-9 and the model 1911 as well and I will give you my opinion of both these weapons. However, I will tell you up front that I have been around a long time and do in fact own several model 1911 pistols. Kimbers, Springfields, Colts.

I however have never been in combat where there is so much sand and debris flying around from the wind etc. My war was a little different to say the least! Now lets discuss calibers shall we, I think that is a good place to start. The 45acp was made for trench fighting in World War ONE and that 230 grain hardball bullet had no problems feeding unto the feed ramp. It also made a big hole in the entry wound and had enough energy to stop the attacker, more so than any other pistol caliber at that time.

The 9mm Luger caliber has been around a long time also but never really had the type of bullet nor powders to make that bullet a good "defense round" as it is today with various Self - Defense loads available. Cor - Bon ammo has a load that develops as much as kinetic energy as the 45acp load at 483 foot pounds of energy.

The .40 caliber round is awesome when compared to the 9mm Luger ammo and that of the 45 acp ammo of yesterday. It is used by 90% of all law enforcement across this USA. So the round speaks for itself in that respect. However many Police departments are going back issuing model 1911 pistols to their men.....one has to wonder why? Well simply because they simply work in battle!!! I myself perfer the calbier known as the 10mm! Kimber and Glock are the only factory produces of this caliber that I know of now. It is by far easy to shoot out of a Glock pistol but I don't know much about the Glock pistols in that Sandy area in the middle East. I have been told by some returning troops that their Glocks were aways having to be cleaned etc. ...........I don't know for a fact.

I do believe the 45acp in a 1911 pistol is a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield! It has a very good track record and it was designed NOT TO JAMM under various weather conditions. The United States ARMY "NEVER" really trained anyone that I knew of to actually learn to use that pistol and develope shooting it accurately in my day. I once took a half hour instruction on how to load and shoot the pistol, which when shaken sounded like a can of marbles inside the gun. Most of us that day could not hit squat with that pistol at 25 feet.

However, today things have changed as their is better ammo available and the industry that makes many brands of 1911's has turned a new leaf in favor of a 1911 that will shoot the eyes out of a snake at 20 paces! I do believe that the 1911 model is less apt to be a problem with weather conditions, sand and debris than the M-9 pistol. I also know that the steel frame on the 1911 model can take a lot of punishment and if you run out of bullets, you can use it as a club. I will take the 45acp in battle anyday over what the Army issues today! It hits hard, makes a large wound channel and is very dependable on the battle field.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I'm getting to be a cranky old toot. I like steel handguns, I like handgun cartridges that start with 4, and buy, hand load and cast bullets for handgun cartridges that are 45 caliber.
If I run out of ammo with my 1911 I can still beat the the offending individual silly with my steel handgun.

Jim
Good to see you around the forum, Jim!
 
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