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Nawth East Moderatah
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tracer said:
Now lets discuss calibers shall we, I think that is a good place to start. The 45acp was made for trench fighting in World War 2....
I have to disagree;
The 1911 was developed in the days before WW ONE,[ and so was the ammo, which was designed for the 1911.

In 1910 the final prototype for the Model 1911 pistol, incorporating the addition of the manual safety lever, was put through an exhaustive test regimen. At one point, six thousand rounds were fired through a single pistol without a single jam or failure. On May 5, 1911 the Colt pistol was officially accepted as the "Automatic Pistol, Calibre .45, Model of 1911."Following its adoption by the Army, the M1911 was also accepted by the Navy and the Marines. It was also adopted by Norway, for use by their armed forces. Supplemental production capacity was set up at Springfield Armory, in order to meet the heavy demand for the pistol. When the United States entered World War I, demand for the pistol was so great that contracts were let out to several other manufacturers. Only Remington/U.M.C. actually went into production, however, before the war ended, resulting in the abrupt cancellation of all outstanding contracts.



<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>45 Auto Cartridge History
By Stefano Mattioli


</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Spring of 1904, nearly 100 years ago, the Frankford Arsenal as well as the civilian Industry were asked by the U.S. Government to develop an .45 caliber pistol round to improve the existing pistol rounds and to compete with the ready available .45 caliber revolver rounds of good fame.
The Arsenal however put it on "wait and see". Not so for the folks at Winchester Repeating Arms Co., that in conjunction with COLT Mfg. Co. came up, just after a few months, with a new .45 caliber round housed in a modified .38 Colt pistol model 1900, the .45 Automatic Colt.
Cartridge length was .900" (22,86mm), case was brass and of .470" (11,938mm) diameter, bullet a 200 grains cylindro-spheric gilding jacketed, extraction area had .085" (2,159mm) in length and markings were "W.R.A.Co. .45 AC" on the base and a "W" on the primer.
Now, after the official introduction in 1905 by Winchester Repeating Arms Co. & Colt Mfg. Co. of the .45 AC together with the Colt model 1905, the folks at Frankford Arsenal began to activate matters, starting and trying to better up the existing round. They ended up with a slightly modified .45 cartridge with a longer case and heavier copper-nickel jacket bullet of 230 grains, named "Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge Model of 1906" (FA M1906) to be on time for the upcoming tests planned by the Government for June 1906. The Government however couldn't set on both of them and in the spring of 1907 contracted the Union Metal Cartridge Co. to design another .45 cartridge based on the existing one but with a shorter case. After 5 more months, the cartridge named ".45 Automatic Colt Government" (UMC M1907) was ready. Again, other modifications, a larger extraction area, were needed and the Government reordered the Union Metallic Cartridge Co. and Winchester Repeating Arms Co. to redesign it as needed. At the end of 1908, two close to identical cartridges emerged from this request (UMC M1908 & WRA M1908). At the same time, in 1908, the folks at Frankford Arsenal worked on another .45 cartridge (FA M1908), hoping to get the contract for delivering test ammunition to the troops. This contract, however, was issued to UMC, that started delivery of the test ammunition in the year 1909. This round was basically the same as the UMC M1908, but had a cannelure on the bullet just over the case mouth. Markings were " U.M.C. .45 A.C.P." (UMC M1909). After the tests, this round was finally and officially adopted, after some slight modifications (drop of the cannelure), by the Government as the " Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911". This was August of 1911. The ammunition makers could start their production. The first cartridges, Model of 1911, known to be issued came from the Frankford Arsenal (FA M1911) and had the markings "F A 8 11"( the 8 stands for the production month).​

The specifications of today's .45 auto cartridge cases are similar to the one finally adopted in 1911. After this adoption in 1911, the .45 automatic cartridge was a playground for all possible tests, changes, types (blank, dummies, high pressure, tracer, high velocity, perforating, sport, etc..) for military, police and civilian use. Today, a multitude of .45 auto cartridges exists and the .45 auto is still in use in many country's military and police forces. In recent years, the .45 auto cartridge as well as the combining guns has also had a revival in sporting and civilian use. Most of the practical shooting sports are dominated by the .45 auto guns. For personal and protection use, it is as good and sometimes better than any other known cartridge.​


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​
 

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The question here was 1911 vs. M9. There's not much aguement the .45ACP has superior stopping over the 9mm. The US military tested both over 100 years ago and chose the .45 for it's superior stopping power. The only thing that has changed is the myriad of guns made to chamber these 2 venerable rounds. In this case you have a closed-slide auto stuffer versus an open-slide one. It's a matter of conditions of use. The open slide design requires a lot more cleaning and is very problematic in snad or mud. Beretta does however make a .45ACP closed-slide auto in the Cougar. On this piece I have personally seen the slide fly right off the frame to the front on return to battery when the stop on the alloy frame broke. Give me a steel gun any day. When the chips are down I'll be able to count on it not falling apart.

The 1911 turns 100 next year! It remains one of the best-selling designs and a top seller today. That says an aweful lot for John Browning's design. BTW, the LAST gun he designed personally was the closed slide 9mm P-35 (High Power), another worldwide favorite.
 

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Good to see you around the forum, Jim!

Thanks Mike.
I was distracted by the election and everything that came afterwards. I'm feeling some what beat up and came back home to interesting topics and good people to regain some peace and serenity.

Jim
 

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Gentlemen please do forgive my typo error here, I in fact can barely see the print on this PC and have asked prior to typing any of these posts today for help in getting the print enlarge some way so I can see and proof read what I type. :( ;) Thank You!!!

Now as far as my knowledge of the 1911 goes, I fired my very first one in 1958 for the record along with a 1917 Springfield that belong to a squirrel hunting friend of mine who was in World War 1.
 

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1911 gets my vote. I own several of them. I have never owned a Beretta, so please keep that in mind.

My father carried on his hip a Colt Commander for many, many years on the farm. Talk about dirt, grime, & foreign substances. That gun saw alot. But to my knowledge it always fired when the trigger was pulled. Sure he would wipe the gun off if it needed it, and strip clean it 3-4 times a year. Come to think of it I was the one who would strip clean his gun. As a practice of his he would fire the 2 mags he carried every month, and then fill them back up with fresh ammo.

I know this is'nt battlefield tested, but it is tested under conditions that most 1911's would never see.
 

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WAZZ-13, I have a very old one that came from WORLD WAR ONE, 3 Colts (Gold Cup & model 70 series, model 80 series) Springfield, 3 KIMBERS, Para Ord. and 1 GLOCK MODEL 21-SF that was purchased for a CCW weapon and used very little put into the vault in favor of 2 sub-compact Glocks.;):)
 

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Tracer
I was fortunate to inherit (SP) my father's service auto, a 1911 that he was issued in 1939 and carried until his retirement in 1968. This old war horse, the 1911, is a 1911 made in 1913, according to the serial number records. When Dad recieved it, it was blued. How ever after spending some time on a Chinese mountain in the rain, getting the barrel and slide pitted and an armourer put a new slide and barrel on it. I have a two tone 1911 blued and Parkerized.
Shoots pretty accurately.

Jim
 

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I don't like all of the new 9mm pistols, as on todays news, 41 shoots from 5 LEOs to take a guy out in Florida, plus hitting a child in the car and the childs mother. 30 to 40 years ago, it would have been one shot by an extremely well trained officier or no shots would have been taken at all.

The 1911 was as the issue names denotes from 1911, it was a man stopper in it's era, but the 9mm was also developed then.

Two Browning designs have sevred me very well over the last 45 years, 1911 and the Hi Power. They boith have to be carried cocked and locked to make the powers that be happy. Never had a failure that I could blame on the pistol. Most Americans really don't understand that the Hi Power was the most dependable pistol used by body guards, nothing else compared to the Hi Power in those times.

I am not one of those people that doesn't believe in hanging on to the past things that worked well for me, I now carry a SIG P220 in 45 ACP. My carry piece is a S&W 340 PD a 12 0unce 357 Magnum. I generally carry 38 Spl +P Hydr A Shocks in the PD. If I need to, I will carry 357 Mags in it, which the 357 Mag will do much more damage than the 9mm or the 45 ACP. If you haven't shot a ultra lighweight pistol, the adreniline rush after the first shot is generally followed by the pain in your hands.

In my collection I have 3 Kimbers and a Wilson, along with many semi autos and revolvers.

Jerry
 

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I don't like all of the new 9mm pistols, as on todays news, 41 shoots from 5 LEOs to take a guy out in Florida, plus hitting a child in the car and the childs mother. 30 to 40 years ago, it would have been one shot by an extremely well trained officier or no shots would have been taken at all.

Jerry
Jerry,

30-40 years ago you would have the same outcome as all 5 officers would have emptied thier Colt or Smith .38 Specials firing 158 gr RNL. Shot placement is still the key.

Browning started the design of the HiPower but it was Dieudonné Joseph Saive that finished the work. J.M.B. was conracted by FN to build a new pistol for the French Army but couldn't use the M1911 as he had sold the rights to the Colt/Army. He had to design a new way and had only used a single column magazine. When he died in 1926 the gun was unfinished. Saive finished the work and also built the FN49 and FNFAL rifles.

CD

CD
 

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Advantages/disadvantages:
Advantages- M9 holds more rounds and looks sexier. 1911 grip feels slimmer for smaller hands. 1911 has more stopping power per round (real life experience). 1911 doesn't require as much maintenance. 1911 is more durable due to steel frame vs. alloy frame, also stronger for the same reason. Note: The Beretta is not made in .45ACP because the frame can't take the abuse.

Disadvantages- M9 has an open top slide making it more suceptible to debris causing jams. M9 will not function well without lubrication (note attract foreign debris). M9 has had stress cracks develop in frame from hot NATO ammo. The 1911 doesn't house as many rounds or is it as sexy as the M9.
Both require maintence. The open slide doesn't trap dirt in like a closed slide does. Both will develope cracks in the frames and slides. (I've seen cracked 1911s in service) The M9 is nothing but a P38 on steroids and it worked fine for the Africa Korps and me in the deserts for years. Double column mags are more prone to stoppage then single column mags however.
 

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Both require maintence. The open slide doesn't trap dirt in like a closed slide does. Both will develope cracks in the frames and slides. (I've seen cracked 1911s in service) The M9 is nothing but a P38 on steroids and it worked fine for the Africa Korps and me in the deserts for years. Double column mags are more prone to stoppage then single column mags however.
Thanks for pointing this out. My combat experience involved the venerable 1911A1 in steamy wet jungles. Even without the desert sand I've had Beretta lockups when I was shooting it dry. The only times I've had any 1911 sttle hand up with me is when I've used reload ammo not properly resized or the recoil spring is too old and needs changing.
 

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The 1911 and its infertile offspring have a great following, and for good reason - they are great guns. I own numerous versions of them.

The M9 has its lovers and haters. I'm neither, its a much better gun than the 1911 in a few ways, and mostly equal in others, and in a few ways its inferior. The M9 has much better sights, its better balanced, it has a better designed grip, it has higher capacity and holds an easy to shoot round. The 1911 generally has a much better trigger, although followup shots are single action and the trigger can be made very good with a little work. Most 1911s need some trigger work to be exceptional anyway.
Uhhh.. both gun's follow-up shots are single action. The 1911 is always single action, and the M9 can be if the hammer is thumb cocked. It is DA/SA.
 

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Both require maintence. The open slide doesn't trap dirt in like a closed slide does. Both will develope cracks in the frames and slides. (I've seen cracked 1911s in service) The M9 is nothing but a P38 on steroids and it worked fine for the Africa Korps and me in the deserts for years. Double column mags are more prone to stoppage then single column mags however.
Incorrect statements. Double stack mags, are no more prone to failure THAN (not then) single stack mags. The 1911 is notorious for magazine failures which are single stack.
 

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Zombie thread from 2010 and he hasn't been back for over a decade (click on profile to see last activity date).

Welcom
 
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