Crimp is not going to make much difference. You can try magnum primers, my guess is your loads are going to be erratic even with magnum primers. I plan to minimize my use of ball powders for just this reason. I have had just too darned many erratic loads with ball powders. Excellent metering is irrelevant if the loads are inherently erratic. Ball powder loads with less than 100% load density are problematic in my experience.

 

I have used 748 in both .223 and .308 and have always used either CCI or Winchester regular primers, not magnum primers. I can't imagine how the choice of powder would cause misfires/hangfires like you describe. My guess is that perhaps you have primers that have not been fully seated in the cases. The primers should be at least level with the the surface of the head of the cartridge, and better perhaps to be just below the surface by a thousandth or two. I have had misfires in the past with some pistol cartridges and I tried to blame the primers. Turns out it was my primer seating technique that was the culprit. When not seated fully, the primer absorbs the blow of the firing pin as it is shoved deeper into the primer pocket causing either a failure to ignite or a hangfire. I never had a hangfire, just failures to fire. Check out your primer seating and post back what you find. Anyway, that's my best guestimate of the problem.

 

Is your powder kept in a dry and climate controlled room? Powder contamination will also affect how it ignites. Were the inside of your cases clean and dry before priming and charging them? Any foreign substance in the case will impede ignition. Flash holes will collect tumbling media and if not checked and cleaned out, will interfere with the flash. Could be a number of things, eliminate them one at a time.

Allen

 

I've never had an issue with 748 in my 223 or 308s. I ALWAYS use CCI250 or 450 primers and have great accuracy and results.

I've never used 748 in a 30-06, but your loads seem light. I use 47grs in my 308 under a 150, and top loads are 50grs for a 150 in the 308. Load density also effects ignition.

Personally, I use IMR4350 in my 30-06 loads when using a 165gr bullet.

 

Yeah, contamination or cleaning media in the flash hole could do it too. But it is not an inherent problem with the 748 powder or standard primers.

 

I checked the 6 30-06 loads I still have left, they are seated below the bottom of the case. I had a good pile of primed 30-06 brass, I only loaded a few at a time using the 748 so I took the remainder and loaded with IMR4064 (about 12 total) and they went fine. I could not do that with the 223 as I had loaded them all with the 748.

I store them with my other powders. I recently finished 4 pounds of Unique that I opened years ago. The 748 is just over a year old. There is a dehumidifier 20 feet away, it is always powered. My son keeps his drums there and other stuff so we keep the basement climate nice.

I checked the flash hole on at least one caliber (can't remember if I checked all the rifle brass....). I forget if I sized/deprimed and then tumbled or the other way around.....

I have a hard time believing the powder is bad. I used two different bottles with different lot numbers. The first bottle had this prob so I opened the second and tried it and had the same prob.

I will switch back to 4064 for 30-06. The 223 is my concern now. My son wants to use that for predator. I have about 20 223 cases and about 50 52 gr AMAX bullets to play with. Can someone recommend a good load to try next. I gets down to single digits here in PA (sometimes) so I do not want a finicky powder. I hear the IMR4064 is not so good for 223. This really should not be hard.

Is crimping needed? I did not crimp any of these loads. So far the only rifle rounds I have crimped are for my tube fed 30-30. Should I be crimping?

Thanks,
HH

 

Most likely problem with _any_ handload hangfire or misfire is that primers are not fully seated.

Second is either bad/contaminated/wet/etc. powder or even some debris caught in the firing pin mechanism. I had a rifle (new out of the box) once that had a very small, super-thin chunk of metal mashed onto the side of a firing pin. Prevented rounds from firing more often than not, until I disassembled and figured it out. This isn't likely, of course, but the issue has NOTHING to do with the powder, the primer choice, or things of that sort.

This will prove out as a mechanical issue of some sort (to include failure to mechanically seat the primers fully).

 

I agree , common mistake of new reloaders to not use enough primer seating pressure because they are a bit uncertain and nervous about the job.
You should feel the primer seat all the way home and stop on the base of the pocket .
If you can't feel that and they seat irregular and feel spongy as they seat then uniforming the pockets is the way to go. Smooths out the whole process .

 

"This will prove out as a mechanical issue of some sort (to include failure to mechanically seat the primers fully). "

I hope you are right. I am going to try again. Sized and deprimed cases and they are in the tumbler now. I will make sure flash holes are clear before priming. And seat to bottom with nothing keeping it from reaching bottom (like the stop on the press or the handle hitting the bench). What is a good way to check this? My eyes are getting older.... bifocals stink.

Any other potential problem spots to watch for?

Thanks,
HH

 

First off, I'm not an expert but quite a few years of experience. Since I'm 66 I can't remember every post and what they said, so I quoted a few.

First you need to use a hand priming tool if you want consistent and accurate rounds. A press will likely over seat and crush the primer. But if the primer hole is not cleaned and IS carboned up thats your fist problem. I know opinions will vary for the following, but I ALWAYS use a carbide primer hole uniformer. If the hole isn't cut deep enough or not at a uniform depth, this will fix it. If your hole is deep enough, this will not further deepen the hole, just clean it very well.

Your load (27.3 gr W748) is light, thus not giving you a full case. A full case is when you seat the bullet it touch's the powder. If you add even more powder you get a compressed load/charge. Never go beyond the recommended load, and don't approach it unless you work it up properly.

Magnum primers are not recommended and should not be used. You have to correct the problem , not cover it up. Personally I don't like W748 for .233. Its too hot in trhe summer which is when most guys use it.

Now I will comment on the quoted posts below:






Check every primer with your finger. You should not be able too feel much difference between the primer and the case head and your finger will detect any difference at all. It should feel smooth, not extra deep. But if they are deeper no more then .002 which someone else wrote, and they all need to be uniform. I personally don't recommend progressive presses for beginners. You just are doing too many things all at the same time, and its very hard to acchieve constant accuracy.

"
I showed three loads for the 30-06 all of them have hangfired. Is the highest one too light? Actually Hodgdon told me not to use 748 with a 165 gr bullet (too heavy a bullet, I got that load data from an old Sierra book).

The primers all have good hits on them. The ones that hangfire and misfire look like good solid hits.

If I did size the shoulder back to far is there a way to still use the case? I need to make sure those cases fire this next time or it will be stuck and useless. Is there something to paint on the shoulder area to keep it from moving forward when the firing pin strikes it?

Thanks,
HH

For your 30-06 NS 165 Gr bullet, Lyman 47th recommends 45,8 gr W748 as a a starting load, and 52 gr as max load, so your load is light, but work it up carefully and stop when you achieve accuracy. Personaly I would use another powder. Your IMR 4064 looks good.

223 load- maximum is 30gr. The 30-06 is 52.5 gr maximum. Make sure the rounds have proper neck tension. Steve's Reloading Data Pages Steve's data may contain maximums from the old Speer Manual Number 8. These maximum may be too hot & over pressure. Always work up the powder charge as always.

Good advice. Happy HUNTER - Do you understand neck tension?

My first choice is always Lyman. #49 is their newest manual and it isn't powder or bullet specific. Unlike powder or bullet company manuals, Lyman uses a wide variety of bullets and powders for every cartridge they list.

I always use Lyman's manuels as its the best. They also test every load themselves. Unlike other manuels, they copy loads and fail to test them. But I do like to double check Lyman by looking at the correct powder manufacture's load book and approach loads with caution.

I know I didn't answer all your questions, but its past my bed time.

 

I hope you find the gremlin in the works.

A hint on checking the seating depth of a primer. I have gotten in this habit so that I know that every primer is fully seated. I use a Lee hand primer and after I seat every primer, I run it across the tip of my middle finger on the hand holding the priming tool. I hold the tool in my right hand and place and remove the brass with my left hand. As I take a primed piece of brass out of the tool, I rub it over my finger. I can very easily tell if it is flush, sticking up a little bit, or below flush. If I have a doubt, I place the primed brass on a steel flat that is on my big Texan turret loading press. It it rocks any at all, I know the primer is high and needs to be seated deeper.

 

I buy 748 in 8 lb jugs so you might say I go through a little of it. Never had a problem with any loads 748 is applicable for. My thoughts are going to how you prime the cases. Any chance for contamination? The most common primers I use are Winchester. Use WSR for the .223 and WLRM for the .308 just because the recipe I used specified a magnum primer.

I don't crimp for any of my bolt rifles. Never had issues getting the accuracy I needed without it. Also haven't noticed the bullets changing their seated location without crimps.

As someone else mentioned, many ball powders work best with close to 100% load density.... thats also my experience.

 

Is it a hang fire or all out miss fire. If it's hang fire I would say contaminated powder or media in the flash hole. If it's miss fire I would say primer seating, contaminated primers, or firearm mechanical malfunction. Media will usually not even cause a hang fire. The pressure from the prime alone will usually blow any media out of the way. Primers have enough pressure to push a bullet out of the case. Look at the prime strikes on the cases the misfired/hang fired and compare them with the ones that fired.

 

As he used two different primers in what I imagine was two different guns but the same powder then it is possible that the powder could be faulty .
The powder was common to the fault.
The reloader was common to the fault .
Stranger things have happened.

 

Very good trouble-shooting skills - you narrowed it down to the two variables that are most likely causing the problem. Of the two, the odds are probably 9 to 1 it's the reloader. Whether he's not seating primers properly, or contaminating them in some way, you can almost bet it's not the powder.

I had something similar happen a while back, but with a single rifle. That one turned out to be a problem with the firing pin. In this scenario, I'm pretty sure the root cause is the guy seating the primers. :twocents:

 

I looked at the 20 remaining 223 rounds last night, the primers are seated way below the bottom of the case.

The primer hits from both guns look good, not wimpy. The 223 is from a Rossi single shot that belongs to my nephew who loaned it to my son. The 30-06 is going thru my 1903 which is fairly new to me but has fired good with my 4064 loads.

I have had misfires (total failure to fire) and hangfires (hammer falls and a moment later the gun goes bang) from both guns.

I am running short of time for my son to hunt. I will probably buy a new powder to try in the remaining time. Work with the 748 in the summer. My primed cases worked fine with the 4064.

What does it mean: 100% load density??

Does that mean loads near max? Not reduced charge loads? I do like reduced loads for the bigger calibers - less recoil. I think my 223 load was pretty much max - no need to reduce recoil on that. But the 06 loads were reduced a good bit from max, so maybe that is my fault. Although I had hang fires with the hotter 06 loads...

Thanks,
HH

 

hangfires (hammer falls and a moment later the gun goes bang)

Actually, that is not a "hangfire."
A hang fire is when the hammer falls igniting the primer; then a split second later the powder ignites.

In my 30-06s using ball powders, with light loads, in cool temperatures; I will experience hangfires. Once I increase the powder charge to a sufficient weight, the hangfires cease.

 

"the primers are seated way below the bottom of the case."

Now you have brought in another possibility. If you are doing a "gorilla grip" when seating the primers, you may be crushing them, thus making some misfire and others hangfire due to the broken primer material or mashed anvil. The primers should not be very much below the level of the case head, a couple thousandths at most. It is a matter of feel, telling when the primer stops and not continuing to crush it. Are you using the press to seat them or a hand primer? I have had better luck with a hand primer feeling when the primer is seated. With the leverage that is available on a press, it is easy to crush the primers. You can do it with a hand primer too, if you have superman hands.

Without seeing the primed case, this is just speculation.

 

I'm just going to toss out a WAG on this one since most of the others have covered the primer issue pretty well.

Is there a possibility that you might have shoved the shoulder back on the cases a little more than needed when they were sized?

If so this could give you a bit of excessive headsapce which would effectively allow the case to drive forward when the firing pin hit it resulting in a good strike but not enough force delivered due to the case moving forward.

Like I said just a WAG from a different perspective.

 

doesn't the gun go bang when the powder ignites?I have a lot of new 30-30 brass that the primer pockets are too deep and I get about 75% that fail to fire.Have you done any primer pocket work on your brass?

 

I had that same problem with one of my 30-30 Winchester 94's using win brass and primer's. I switched primers...Federal.. and the problem seemed to go away.

 

41 Mag may have hit it.... I just started using a single stage press instead of my RCBS 2000 progressive. Someone told me to set it up so the press "cams over" the sizer. He showed me the ram should come up and hit the die, some force should be required to get the lever down the whole way. Would that make the case too short? I set the 30-06 and 223 that way.

As for lot number, I used 2 different bottles and they were different lot numbers. I have a hard time believing both were bad. Really I have a hard time believing even one was bad.

I do have a hand primer but need to get the shell holders for it. I am using a press which is hard to feel what is going on. The 223 primers went in deeper than the 30-06. I really think the pockets are just that deep. Not sure it should be that way...

Thanks,
HH

Hey, what is load density that someone mentioned earlier?? Should I not be loading my 30-06 to lighter levels?

 

I ran your .30-06 load through Quickload and also checked on the Hodgdon site. It's clearly a very light load; below the load Hodgdon suggested as a starting load for 165 gr. Sierra bullet. The low charge weight could be part of your problem.

The .223 load looks a little more reasonable and shouldn't have the same problem. But your primer might not be hot enough. You changed only the powder, but getting the powder lit off is a variable in itself. So really, there are two variables.

I have used ball powder (surplus WC) in a .257 Roberts and it worked fine with standard primers, but they were Winchester (which seem to be pretty hot) and the charge weights were much closer to normal operating pressures for the cartridge.

I don't set the case shoulder back any more than necessary for easy chambering. Whether screwing the die down against the shellholder is correct can only be determined by measuring how far the shoulder is set back during the resizing process. There are tools for that or you can make your own inexpensive gage. Don't know if that's part of the problem but it does shorten brass life. The RCBS Precision Mic is one tool that I have purchased and used to check the resizing die adjustment.

I would try different primers, and not load the .30-06 so light, before concluding the powder was defective. What exact primers were recommended with your load data? That's a good starting point. I don't have any experience reloading the .223, but have loaded a lot of stick powders in a .30-06 and never experienced what you described. I have also loaded ball powders (again surplus WC powder) in quantities that would fill up a .338 Win Mag case, and no problems there, but I was using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers.

Hope you get it sorted out.

 

Light firing pin strikes and primers not fully seated NEVER cause hangfires. Misfires yes, hangfires, no. Priming compound is a primary explosive, it either detonates or not. When it detonates it does so in microseconds regardless of how hard or soft it was hit. Under no conditions will dry priming compound burn slowly. Priming compound is not like powder which is a propellant and can burn at various speeds depending on pressure and confinement. Also, it is extremely unlikely your powder is defective. Interestingly, one of the more hangfire prone cartridges I shoot, 458 Lott works very well with 748, I have never had a hangfire with it but the load density is always nearly or greater than 100% Load density can make a huge difference especially with ball powders. I have shot loads that hangfired badly but increasing load density with a filler such as corn cob grits and reducing the powder charge several grains never hangfires. I had a conversation about this with George E Frost a couple of decades ago, Frost is the author of "Ammunition Making" and worked a lifetime in the field. As explained in his book and as he explained to me primer sensitivity is checked by dropping a weight onto a firing pin which strikes the subject primer. The height of the weight is varied to determine the minimum energy to fire the primer. Primer manufacturers fire large numbers of primers in this test. Mr. Frost told me correctly manufactured primers either fire or not,, they never "fizzle".

 

I still say primer or the gun. It's the only real variable between the loads. Brass casing nothing to do with it 06 has bigger bullet nothing to do with it. Powder the same one goes bang the other doesn't powder sounds good its been tried in a different load and works fine. One has small primers one large primers. Other than the firearm the primers are the only variable. new box of primer will set you back 4 bucks. Are the temperatures low in your location. Some oils after time will sludge up more so in colder weather. The firing pin could be sticking and releasing slow. On the misfired is there a firing pin indent in the primer. If so I would say bad primers if not, time to break the rifle down for a through cleaning.

 

"I ran your .30-06 load through Quickload and also checked on the Hodgdon site. It's clearly a very light load; below the load Hodgdon suggested as a starting load for 165 gr. Sierra bullet. The low charge weight could be part of your problem."
I showed three loads for the 30-06 all of them have hangfired. Is the highest one too light? Actually Hodgdon told me not to use 748 with a 165 gr bullet (too heavy a bullet, I got that load data from an old Sierra book).

The primers all have good hits on them. The ones that hangfire and misfire look like good solid hits.

If I did size the shoulder back to far is there a way to still use the case? I need to make sure those cases fire this next time or it will be stuck and useless. Is there something to paint on the shoulder area to keep it from moving forward when the firing pin strikes it?

Thanks,
HH

 

I went back and looked at the Hodgdon site - my mistake, the data I saw was for 760. There is no data listed on the Hodgdon site for 748 with the 165gr. bullet. Good catch, and shows why getting data off the internet has risks.

I don't trust Quickload absolutely, but use it for generating good starting loads and some other things. It shows that there is a fair amount of airspace with your 49gr. load. Probably not a recipe for success with ball powder. Certainly not if the primer isn't up to the task.

My Hornady manual doesn't show 748 with 165gr. bullets, either, so with neither Hodgdon nor Hornady publishing data, and the issues you had, I think I'd use something else.

Not sure about your troubles with the .223.

 

You need magnum primers. Clean both bolts/firing pin channels, so the firing pin speed is at maximum. Check your brass cleaning method that may leave residue or water/moisture in the case. Dont use spray lube, use a pad.

 

223 load- maximum is 30gr. The 30-06 is 52.5 gr maximum. Make sure the rounds have proper neck tension. Steve's Reloading Data Pages Steve's data may contain maximums from the old Speer Manual Number 8. These maximum may be too hot & over pressure. Always work up the powder charge as always.

 

That .30-06 load you quote from Steve's reloading is still only about 85% of the case filled with powder (more or less). I can see how that wouldn't be giving consistent results in cold weather, especially if the primers weren't hot enough.

It might work for some folks.

Oh and I did find the (original) load listed in my Sierra manual. Noted that they used Winchester primers. Might make a difference. But I don't know if they did their testing in cold weather or not.