Model 94 trigger
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80vette,
Please don't take this wrong, I mean nothing personal in what I am about to say.
I would have never brought that rifle home. ALL the gun makers have forgotten how to make decent triggers. But USRAC's new lawyered up rebounding hammer action is hidious.
I bought one many years ago before USRAC butchered the reciever and put in that, ugh, saftey thing. I learned the hard way, and will never buy another one.
I tried a trigger job. Did it myself, got the pull down to a reasonable level, but there is no way to make a decent trigger out of it because of the design. I ended up replacing the lower tang assembly with an older one. Problem solved.
Back to your rifle. Did you check the pull at the dealer? If so why did you accept a gun with such a terrible trigger? If not why not? Some dealers tend to "frown" a lot when you dry fire a gun in the shop, too bad. Before I drop my cash on the counter I must know that I can eventually be satisfied with my purchase.
Or did you order it in sight unseen? A major mistake. Altho with the pathetic state of many gun shops, it's not surprising. They don't carry any stock to examine and choose from.
Almost every new gun made now will need something.
RANT ON
Some, however are beyond reason as they are now "redesigned", and without major modifications will never be any good.
My fondest wish would be for the American shooters to wake up and tell the gun makers, "WE" are tired of your over redisigned lawyered up junk and won't buy it any more.
I have. As I said, I won't ever buy another USRAC Mdl 94, or 92, or 86, or Taurus 92, or New Model Ruger Blackhawks, or the new S&W's or Taurus's with the moronic, ( and in my opinion potentially deadly) key safety.
Now I am quite aware that I will be attacked for my stand. I will be told I am playing right into the anti-gunners hands because "I" am contributing to the downfall of the American gun makers. Thats OK, I can't help it if some people's standards are so low that they will buy junk, swallowing the retorick of the gunmakers PR department. I was attacked on several forums because of my particapation in the S&W boycott. Nothings changed with them. They may be American owned now, but they haven't voided the agreement. And now they are further destroying a beautifully designed firearm with the after thought safteys. To me, UNACEPTABLE!!
I have been a shooter long enough to know what I want, and what I don't.
I don't mind a design change IF it is an improvement. But these after thought, lawyer inspired action redesigns, and saftey gadgets are not improvements.
Why do people buy this junk?
Rant Off
80vette, as I said, nothing personal towards you, but your question just tripped a major sore spot in me and I had to vent.
OK, I have my nomex suit on and zipped and my bag packed.
If my pointed expressions of my feelings and opinions are not welcome here, I'll be on my way.
Please don't take this wrong, I mean nothing personal in what I am about to say.
I would have never brought that rifle home. ALL the gun makers have forgotten how to make decent triggers. But USRAC's new lawyered up rebounding hammer action is hidious.
I bought one many years ago before USRAC butchered the reciever and put in that, ugh, saftey thing. I learned the hard way, and will never buy another one.
I tried a trigger job. Did it myself, got the pull down to a reasonable level, but there is no way to make a decent trigger out of it because of the design. I ended up replacing the lower tang assembly with an older one. Problem solved.
Back to your rifle. Did you check the pull at the dealer? If so why did you accept a gun with such a terrible trigger? If not why not? Some dealers tend to "frown" a lot when you dry fire a gun in the shop, too bad. Before I drop my cash on the counter I must know that I can eventually be satisfied with my purchase.
Or did you order it in sight unseen? A major mistake. Altho with the pathetic state of many gun shops, it's not surprising. They don't carry any stock to examine and choose from.
Almost every new gun made now will need something.
RANT ON
Some, however are beyond reason as they are now "redesigned", and without major modifications will never be any good.
My fondest wish would be for the American shooters to wake up and tell the gun makers, "WE" are tired of your over redisigned lawyered up junk and won't buy it any more.
I have. As I said, I won't ever buy another USRAC Mdl 94, or 92, or 86, or Taurus 92, or New Model Ruger Blackhawks, or the new S&W's or Taurus's with the moronic, ( and in my opinion potentially deadly) key safety.
Now I am quite aware that I will be attacked for my stand. I will be told I am playing right into the anti-gunners hands because "I" am contributing to the downfall of the American gun makers. Thats OK, I can't help it if some people's standards are so low that they will buy junk, swallowing the retorick of the gunmakers PR department. I was attacked on several forums because of my particapation in the S&W boycott. Nothings changed with them. They may be American owned now, but they haven't voided the agreement. And now they are further destroying a beautifully designed firearm with the after thought safteys. To me, UNACEPTABLE!!
I have been a shooter long enough to know what I want, and what I don't.
I don't mind a design change IF it is an improvement. But these after thought, lawyer inspired action redesigns, and saftey gadgets are not improvements.
Why do people buy this junk?
Rant Off
80vette, as I said, nothing personal towards you, but your question just tripped a major sore spot in me and I had to vent.
OK, I have my nomex suit on and zipped and my bag packed.
If my pointed expressions of my feelings and opinions are not welcome here, I'll be on my way.
Joined
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37,404 Posts
J Miller,
Yes there is a lot of junk out there these days. I just bought a pre-crossbolt safety Marlin, and this is one of the reasons why.
I noticed that you mentioned the Taurus key safety. I have a .357 Titanium. Problem has been solved as I have already lost the key. So it will never be turned on! I may consider putting some locktite in it so it won't move. I also noticed that it is not a true key with tumblers, it appears to be just a tamper-resistant Torx screw. Some lock, huh?
Well, anyway, sometimes a feller's just got to say what he thinks. As long as you're not attacking other people on the forum I am interested in hearing what you have to say.
Any reason you don't like New Model Rugers? I have several and like not having the worry about keeping an empty chamber under the hammer, mainly when introducing new shooters. They have enough to think about already. Also if I cock the hammer in the field and don't shoot, don't have to monkey around with lining everything up when I let it back down. They do have their faults, though.
They're not the best finished gun in the world, but as Marshall says, Ruger makes one heck of a do-it-yourself handgun!
Yes there is a lot of junk out there these days. I just bought a pre-crossbolt safety Marlin, and this is one of the reasons why.
I noticed that you mentioned the Taurus key safety. I have a .357 Titanium. Problem has been solved as I have already lost the key. So it will never be turned on! I may consider putting some locktite in it so it won't move. I also noticed that it is not a true key with tumblers, it appears to be just a tamper-resistant Torx screw. Some lock, huh?
Well, anyway, sometimes a feller's just got to say what he thinks. As long as you're not attacking other people on the forum I am interested in hearing what you have to say.
Any reason you don't like New Model Rugers? I have several and like not having the worry about keeping an empty chamber under the hammer, mainly when introducing new shooters. They have enough to think about already. Also if I cock the hammer in the field and don't shoot, don't have to monkey around with lining everything up when I let it back down. They do have their faults, though.
They're not the best finished gun in the world, but as Marshall says, Ruger makes one heck of a do-it-yourself handgun!
MikeG,
Thought for sure I would get blasted this time. I wasn't trying to, but it seems that everytime I get wordy and state how I feel it happens.
My dislike for the NM Rugers comes from the experiances I have had with two Blackhawks in .45 colt.
I enjoy shooting SA revolvers, but when loading and unloading them I don't want to have to manually rotate the cylinder to center it in the loading grove. That is what the half cock notch is for. With the big bores it isn't too much a pain, but when you get down to the .357's and smaller, getting the chamber lined up with the ejector rod is a major pain.
My second gripe happened with two different NM's. After just a couple hundred rounds each the base pin would come unlatched and jump forward, jamming up the gun. This is a cronic NM SA problem. It would take a spread sheet to list all the posts I have read by people that are asking what can I do about the base pin.
Now, for about $200.xx dollars one can replace the Ruger action with a Power Custom action, and the basepin with an oversized one from several different makers. This corrects for the most part Ruger's design flaws. And still leaves you with the transfer bar.
I don't feel the transfer bar action is any safer than the old style action at all though. Because safety is in the hands of the person holding the gun.
My first center fire revolver was a Colt clone with the standard action. I talked to a bunch of old timers when I got it about the proper way to handle the old style guns. I engraved this into my mind, my hands, and to this date, I have never had an AD with a standard SA. But I did with a NM Blackhawk. Yep, out of ingrained training and habbit I tried to load it like you do the old style, but thinking it's safe with six. Well you figured it out, when I went to lower the hammer like the old style my thumb slipped off the hammer and because my finger was on the trigger, well lets just say I was thankfull the house had a two layer block wall. Had that gun been an old model there would not have been a round under the hammer.
I hope this answers your question about why I don't like NM Rugers. Yes they are strong, durable, and many things can be done with them.
But I would rather have an OM.
I figure that some day I might buy a NM, but I will have to factor in about $300.00 worth of modifications before I would ever fire it.
As for the key lock, my wories are not for people that do as you did, toss the key. It's for those who have kids. They feel the need for a home defense gun, but then swallow the hype about making the gun impossible for unauthorized kids to use. Sounds good on paper, but......................
Picture a key locked gun, a BG coming in, terror, adrinelin pumping, and the terrified gun owner trying to find the key, stick the little pointy end in the tiny hole, turn it the right direction, and all in time to use it before it's too late? I don't like the odds.
Personal experiance: I was asleep, sound dead asleep when a major fight erupted around our neighbors house. They werent home, but the people on the other side were going insane. Actually trying to kill each other. When I woke to this my system was already pumping with adrenilin. I could barely get my pants on. I would NEVER have been able to use one of those key locks. NEVER. As it was I got my pants on grabbed my S&W and headed downstairs to protect mine. If necessary. It wasn't, but I was ready.
I'm wordy as all heck today, must be the screaming sinus headache I am suffering with. Upper respritory virus infection been beating me up the last week.
Thought for sure I would get blasted this time. I wasn't trying to, but it seems that everytime I get wordy and state how I feel it happens.
My dislike for the NM Rugers comes from the experiances I have had with two Blackhawks in .45 colt.
I enjoy shooting SA revolvers, but when loading and unloading them I don't want to have to manually rotate the cylinder to center it in the loading grove. That is what the half cock notch is for. With the big bores it isn't too much a pain, but when you get down to the .357's and smaller, getting the chamber lined up with the ejector rod is a major pain.
My second gripe happened with two different NM's. After just a couple hundred rounds each the base pin would come unlatched and jump forward, jamming up the gun. This is a cronic NM SA problem. It would take a spread sheet to list all the posts I have read by people that are asking what can I do about the base pin.
Now, for about $200.xx dollars one can replace the Ruger action with a Power Custom action, and the basepin with an oversized one from several different makers. This corrects for the most part Ruger's design flaws. And still leaves you with the transfer bar.
I don't feel the transfer bar action is any safer than the old style action at all though. Because safety is in the hands of the person holding the gun.
My first center fire revolver was a Colt clone with the standard action. I talked to a bunch of old timers when I got it about the proper way to handle the old style guns. I engraved this into my mind, my hands, and to this date, I have never had an AD with a standard SA. But I did with a NM Blackhawk. Yep, out of ingrained training and habbit I tried to load it like you do the old style, but thinking it's safe with six. Well you figured it out, when I went to lower the hammer like the old style my thumb slipped off the hammer and because my finger was on the trigger, well lets just say I was thankfull the house had a two layer block wall. Had that gun been an old model there would not have been a round under the hammer.
I hope this answers your question about why I don't like NM Rugers. Yes they are strong, durable, and many things can be done with them.
But I would rather have an OM.
I figure that some day I might buy a NM, but I will have to factor in about $300.00 worth of modifications before I would ever fire it.
As for the key lock, my wories are not for people that do as you did, toss the key. It's for those who have kids. They feel the need for a home defense gun, but then swallow the hype about making the gun impossible for unauthorized kids to use. Sounds good on paper, but......................
Picture a key locked gun, a BG coming in, terror, adrinelin pumping, and the terrified gun owner trying to find the key, stick the little pointy end in the tiny hole, turn it the right direction, and all in time to use it before it's too late? I don't like the odds.
Personal experiance: I was asleep, sound dead asleep when a major fight erupted around our neighbors house. They werent home, but the people on the other side were going insane. Actually trying to kill each other. When I woke to this my system was already pumping with adrenilin. I could barely get my pants on. I would NEVER have been able to use one of those key locks. NEVER. As it was I got my pants on grabbed my S&W and headed downstairs to protect mine. If necessary. It wasn't, but I was ready.
I'm wordy as all heck today, must be the screaming sinus headache I am suffering with. Upper respritory virus infection been beating me up the last week.
Joined
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5,428 Posts
Guys:
Unfortunately, If you WANT a Winchester, and want a decent trigger; [I say decent trigger because unless you spend some time OR money on a 94, they all have lousy triggers], you have to buy, or for that matter find, an older 94 and go from there.
I don't fancy myself as a 'collector', but I'm on my 10th Win. lever of assorted flavors, and all the triggers leave alot to be wished for. My newest, an unfired .444 Timber carbine, would be best classified as almost MILITARY 2 stage!!
Yes they can be honed, and yes, the rebound hammers su#@, But this is how they are offered.
Mr. Miller, your words are true as far as the litigous B.S. that the American public has to endure as law abiding firearm owners! It's not gonna git any better from where I'm standing in NJ either.
The Ruger, and I own several, new and old model, could be cured B4 the pistols ever left the factory if the MFG. was concerned about Quality vs. Profit.
I'd like to thank you all for humoring me and that's my $.02 <!--emo&
--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, If you WANT a Winchester, and want a decent trigger; [I say decent trigger because unless you spend some time OR money on a 94, they all have lousy triggers], you have to buy, or for that matter find, an older 94 and go from there.
I don't fancy myself as a 'collector', but I'm on my 10th Win. lever of assorted flavors, and all the triggers leave alot to be wished for. My newest, an unfired .444 Timber carbine, would be best classified as almost MILITARY 2 stage!!
Yes they can be honed, and yes, the rebound hammers su#@, But this is how they are offered.
Mr. Miller, your words are true as far as the litigous B.S. that the American public has to endure as law abiding firearm owners! It's not gonna git any better from where I'm standing in NJ either.
The Ruger, and I own several, new and old model, could be cured B4 the pistols ever left the factory if the MFG. was concerned about Quality vs. Profit.
I'd like to thank you all for humoring me and that's my $.02 <!--emo&
--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->
Joined
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37,404 Posts
I've had two instances of base pin jump. Both with light loads, incidentally.
One was just too much oil on the base pin. Easily cured.
The other, the cross-pin was not fully engaging the slot in the base pin. A needle file cured this.
I do have Belt Mountain pins on a couple of guns, although neither had a jumping base pin. I was just dressing them up, I guess. I suppose I have been lucky, my Rugers and I have gotten along pretty well.
Action job... well, you can get a spring kit cheap. Or you can just take one leg of the trigger return spring off. That pretty well cures them, for free.
I can see how it would be distressing to go from an old-style SA to a new one. So you might have a good idea, just stick with what you know. For lever actions, I started out with no safety and a half-cock notch, I know what you mean! I don't want a lever gun with a safety for that reason. But with my revolvers, first SA I has was a new model Ruger so I guess that's what I'll stick with.
One was just too much oil on the base pin. Easily cured.
The other, the cross-pin was not fully engaging the slot in the base pin. A needle file cured this.
I do have Belt Mountain pins on a couple of guns, although neither had a jumping base pin. I was just dressing them up, I guess. I suppose I have been lucky, my Rugers and I have gotten along pretty well.
Action job... well, you can get a spring kit cheap. Or you can just take one leg of the trigger return spring off. That pretty well cures them, for free.
I can see how it would be distressing to go from an old-style SA to a new one. So you might have a good idea, just stick with what you know. For lever actions, I started out with no safety and a half-cock notch, I know what you mean! I don't want a lever gun with a safety for that reason. But with my revolvers, first SA I has was a new model Ruger so I guess that's what I'll stick with.
Joined
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5,218 Posts
Hey guys, I too don't like the lawyered up stuff either. I don't blame the gun manufacturers for that part of the gripe. It's our litiguous society that gets full credit for that one. I don't think the gun makers like it anymore than we do.
You can fix the trigger problem yourself, But you have to get rid of the rebounding hammer. The problem with lighting up the trigger is you do not have enough inertia from the spring to overcome the rebounding hammer to get 100% ignition.
You can do it with a Dremmal tool and about an hour of your time if you have the right attachments
and you will have a smooth trigger with the rebounding part history..............Marko
You can do it with a Dremmal tool and about an hour of your time if you have the right attachments
and you will have a smooth trigger with the rebounding part history..............Marko
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2,205 Posts
Vette,
The other option, which no one else has mentioned here, is to just learn to shoot the rifle the way it is! I have a '94 made in about the early '80's with the rebounding hammer and angle eject, but no crossbolt safety. Trigger pull is approximately 6.5 - 7 lbs. I don't have a trigger pull guage, just a fishing scale so weight is approximate. But I have learned to shoot that rifle quite well as is. I too like a good trigger pull, but with practice you can shoot a rifle even with a poor trigger.
I have a Ruger 77MKII with a factory trigger pull of about 8.5 lbs. I have installed a Timney on that gun with a wonderful pull at about 2.5 lbs. But just as an experiment, I reinstalled the factory trigger and got groups just as small as with the Timney. Granted we're not talking about a benchrest gun here, but neither is your '94.
I have a friend who, when I complain about some piece of equipment's performance, reminds me that "a bad dancer is bothered by the shirt over his a**". Not to blame the shooter for a poorly made piece of equipment, but a reminder that with practice you can overcome that less than perfect trigger! IDShooter
<!--EDIT|IDShooter|April 19 2002,09:51-->
The other option, which no one else has mentioned here, is to just learn to shoot the rifle the way it is! I have a '94 made in about the early '80's with the rebounding hammer and angle eject, but no crossbolt safety. Trigger pull is approximately 6.5 - 7 lbs. I don't have a trigger pull guage, just a fishing scale so weight is approximate. But I have learned to shoot that rifle quite well as is. I too like a good trigger pull, but with practice you can shoot a rifle even with a poor trigger.
I have a Ruger 77MKII with a factory trigger pull of about 8.5 lbs. I have installed a Timney on that gun with a wonderful pull at about 2.5 lbs. But just as an experiment, I reinstalled the factory trigger and got groups just as small as with the Timney. Granted we're not talking about a benchrest gun here, but neither is your '94.
I have a friend who, when I complain about some piece of equipment's performance, reminds me that "a bad dancer is bothered by the shirt over his a**". Not to blame the shooter for a poorly made piece of equipment, but a reminder that with practice you can overcome that less than perfect trigger! IDShooter
<!--EDIT|IDShooter|April 19 2002,09:51-->
Joined
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5,428 Posts
Good points ID!
Unfortunately, just like when we were younger and cars were the things to constantly tinker with, I find I'm personally futzing with my guns to try to "improve" them. When I step back and look though, the way the gun came out of the box, it worked fine.
Unfortunately, just like when we were younger and cars were the things to constantly tinker with, I find I'm personally futzing with my guns to try to "improve" them. When I step back and look though, the way the gun came out of the box, it worked fine.
80vette,
I took your post about your new gun and turned it into a rant fest. Please accept my apologies.
I suppose I am a bone headed stubborn old guy that doesn't have much patience with the way things are going in our society now. (Foot in mouth syndrome.)
In the Tech Notes section here is an article I wrote about replacing the lower tang assembly on a Mdl 94 to get rid of the rebounding hammer action. It might be of interest to you.
As for the safety, Oglesby & Oglesby in Springfield IL, 217-487-7100, make a plug to do away with the safety in these guns. I don't know if they sell them retail or if you have to send you rifle to them, but it is something to check out.
Of course I'm speaking from my experiance and dislike of these things again. I don't know if you like them or not.
I took your post about your new gun and turned it into a rant fest. Please accept my apologies.
I suppose I am a bone headed stubborn old guy that doesn't have much patience with the way things are going in our society now. (Foot in mouth syndrome.)
In the Tech Notes section here is an article I wrote about replacing the lower tang assembly on a Mdl 94 to get rid of the rebounding hammer action. It might be of interest to you.
As for the safety, Oglesby & Oglesby in Springfield IL, 217-487-7100, make a plug to do away with the safety in these guns. I don't know if they sell them retail or if you have to send you rifle to them, but it is something to check out.
Of course I'm speaking from my experiance and dislike of these things again. I don't know if you like them or not.
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