[pruhdlr]

I have one of the older Savage 112V(Series J)chambered in 220Swift. I am contemplating letting my wife use this for a (Fla sized)deer gun, shooting from a shooting house, with a very stable bench rest.

The "problem" is that this weapon has a 1:14 twist bbl and the bullets that I wanted to use are longer than the Greenhill equation allows. My bullets of choice would be the 60Gr NosPart or one of the Barnes solid copper design. This for penetration and a humane kill.

I was wondering if any of you guys have tried bullets of the heavier weight(longer length) outta your 1:14 Swifts,and if they tend to stabilize ?? I would like to be able to reduce the load somewhat,down to around 3650 or so,realizing that this reduction could also enhance the bullets instability.

What say ye ?? Anyone with any experience with this "problem" ?? -----pruhdlr

 

[tpv]

My experience with the Swift was a 1 in 14" twist. With the 60 grain bullets you might have some that keyhole as I did. Even the 55 grain was not as accurate as the 50 grain flat bases. 1 in 12 would work better and allow the 55 and 60 to be shot more accurately.
Savage woke up and now offers a 22-250 with a 1 in 9 twist for longer bullets.
I'd re-barrel in order to get what you want.

 

[MikeG]

I have a .22-250 that has gone deer hunting. Will have to drag it out of the safe and see what the twist rate is, but it's had that barrel a long, long time. Well before the fast twist stuff became popular. No way it's any faster than 1-12".

Handloads with the Barnes 52 or 53gr. "X" work just fine in my rifle. I would not get too wrapped up in the Greenhill formula. Lots of stuff works that it says won't. How close are you in terms of the formula? If you are within 10% or so of what it suggests is needed I bet it will work.

Another interesting choice might be the Sierra 63gr. semi-pointed. It is a very short bullet for the weight. I don't know how well they'd hold together, but keep the velocity down and that would increase the odds for success.

Worth a box of bullets to try, my opinion....... If it doesn't work, then you can rebarrel or choose something else, as needed. You may be surprised what your Swift will do.

And yeah, it should work just fine on the small Florida deer.

 

[unclenick]

My experience is the same as Tpv's. My 14" .222 Rem would not shoot 55 grain boattails nearly as well as shorter 50 grain flat base bullets. My stability calculator says the boattails were just barely stable (.738" long).

You can download my stability Excel file for a more accurate barrel twist estimate than the Greenhill formula from my file repository, drop.io/unclenick. The same calculations are available at the online JBM calculators. It is Don Millers revision of the Greenhill to include bullet mass (without knowing its specific gravity), velocity, temperature and barometric pressure conditions. I rigged mine so you can plug in an existing twist as well as a desired stability factor to get the twist result. So far, it has successfully predicted three keyhole events for different shooters. The result is much closer than the old Greenhill formula for velocities from about 1400 fps and up. Below that you are getting into the transonic range and the formula does not have the sophistication to take those quirks into account. My file adds an altitude calculator for barometric temperature and a stability measurement page based on wind deflection diagonal angle.

For your Nosler Partition bullet, I have two lengths. The JBM lengths file says it is 0.790". One of QuickLOAD's two copies of the file also says 0.790" and the other says 0.782". At 3500 fps, my calculator says a 14" twist will not stabilize it. It is close, though.

The way these calculators work is by figuring out the gyroscopic stability factor, s. When that number is 1 or greater, the bullet is stable. Below 1, it is unstable. My calculator is giving s=0.93 and s=0.96 for those two partition lengths, respectively. That is close enough to be iffy. As a bullet slows down, the spin rate slows much less rapidly, so the stability factor improves after the bullet slows some. I am showing that if the bullet can travel 35 yards without tumbling, it should become stable. That may happen, but given normal velocity and bullet variations, I would not expect it to happen all the time. That's why you can get some bullets tumbling while others don't. This is no recipe for accuracy.

If you want to shoot a 60 grain bullet accurately, Sierra's criterion is not to let the stability factor fall below s=1.3. At 60 grains, that is 0.700" maximum bullet length. The Hornady 60 grain Soft Point #2270 is that length in my data. If you want a 60 grain bullet just barely stable—say, s=1.05—then you are looking at a maximum length of 0.755". The Norma 62 grain round nose and the 63 grain Sierra semi-spitzer are the two that fit the second criterion of being stable in the 14" twist with little or no safety margin.

Be aware that those stabilities were calculated at 59°C. As it gets colder, the air becomes more dense which increases drag. So the bullet has to spin faster in colder air to resist being overturned by it. That means stability decreases with temperature for a given barrel twist. Frankly, I would not trust either of the latter two bullet choices to be stable below freezing (32°F) from a 14" twist. For that reason, I think the Hornady is the best choice for the weight in that barrel for stability. I would, however, call Hornady to see how tough that bullet is? The online description is the same one they use for the V-max and it talks about explosive expansion. It may only be appropriate for varmints, for that reason? That may also only apply to the V-max? Hornady will tell you.

 

[MikeG]

This probably won't help but I am going to muddy the waters a bit more....

After reading Nick's post, I felt for sure that I had a 1-12" twist barrel on the .22-250, so I wanted to check and apologize if necessary for (potentially) spreading bad information.

Surprise.... my rifle is a 1-14" twist, exactly. 26" six-groove Douglas barrel to be exact, on a 1917 Eddystone Enfield action. Yeah a bit long of an action for a .22-250 but.....

All I can say is, it's worked with the "X" bullets, and the boat-tailed version to boot! Also in my dad's load notes are writeups for the 55gr. Sierra (base not specified). I don't have any chrono data so can't report velocities - will put that on the "to-do" list next range trip. I could pull one of the X bullets and measure length, if you need the info.

It may be that I've only shot the thing in hot, dry weather.... but I don't recall any tumbling bullets. So who knows?

 

[pruhdlr]

Thnx Guys

Really appreciate the feedback guys. The 60gr NosParts that I have measure out to .799". I also have an older box of 60gr Nosler Solid Base that are .782". Neither will fall within the parameters of my 1:14 bbl. As you know,anything besides lead is "light" for the given mass/size/length. The Partition in the NosPart's force the bullets OAL to be just a little longer. Same for any and all boat tails and bullet makeup of copper.

With my weapon the 1:14 is the "deal breaker". A 1:12 twist would be great especially at the speeds attained by the Swift. I have several other .224cal weapons and consequently I have all different weights of .224cal bullets,however none fit into the deer killer category. ESPECIALLY driven >3700fps. My priority is a clean ethical kill. I wanted to use the weapon but seems I'm gonna have to go the re-barrel route.

If I stick with the Swift I can drop down to a 1:12 twist with a 20-22 inch heavy contour bbl. I really like the Swift and want to stick with that chambering if possible.

Mike....don't really want you to have to pull a "X" bullet but if you have some laying around,would sure be interested in the OAL. Any other solid copper'ish bullets also. Problem is......I gotta come up with a bullet of about .740-.750" OAL. That is gonna make any given bullet pretty light. My guess.....50grs or so.

PLEASE ---> any more thoughts,post 'em. Thanks again in advance. -----pruhdlr

 

[pruhdlr]

PhonCon W/ Barnes

Gentlemen, just got off the phone with Ty at Barnes Bullets.(super friendly/super knowledgeable)

He stated that their 45 and 50gr TSX line of bullets(.224") WILL stabilize out of a 1:14 bbl at .22-250 and 220Swift velocities. He stated to me that these bullets were tested "extensively" outta these weapons and were designed especially FOR these slower twist/fast velocity chamberings.

He stated that the OAL of the 50gr. TSX was .736". Also being solid copper design it would "behave" great at the faster (22-250 and Swift) velocities.

Looks like I will try the 50 grainers and see how they will shoot. Will gladly post any results that are deemed noteworthy.

Thanks again for the interest in my "problem". -----pruhdlr

 

[MikeG]

Well, I feel a little better now as to why my rifle will shoot! Had me really scratching my head.....

Best of luck. If we get the 400 yard feeder set up at the lease for hogs, I may take mine out on a calm day. That or my .257 Weatherby.....

 

[tpv]

pru,
I love the Swift.
I will also say that with Swift velocities, the bullet makes a big difference.
You might get a 60 grain flat base to shoot better than a 50 or 55 grain boat tail.
The guy who owns the ranch we hunt has a beautiful mauser action 26" barrel Swift with a 1 in 14. It is topped with a 6-18 Redfield.
You can drive tacks with the 40 and 50 grain flat base bullets but that limits it to long range coyotes.
I can tell you that shooting a pig at 100 yards with a 40 grain grenade launches from a Swift left him running away with a nasty wound on his side. In that case, it would have been better to use a slower 223 with a 55 grain. I wouldn't have had any problems.
The Swift is a great round, but its not that versatile. It is a long range varmint killer, in my opinion.
I have always wanted to build up a 26" barrel 1 in 8.5 inch twist and shoot the 75-80 grain bullets. I'd have a great whitetail/pig size caliber.

There has been a lot of bullet research on the .224 TTH caliber which isn't much different. You might google it to see if other bullets are available.
You know, something we haven't thoughts of


Good Luck

 

[unclenick]

It's good feedback about the Miller calculator. It shows the 50 grain X being just barely understabilized (s=0.98) but if Barnes has tested it, this is just a situation in which the calculator isn't quite on. It is an improved Greenhill formula, but not a perfect one, it seems. Also, since, like the Greenhill formula, it is really intended to help you select a twist to order your barrel in, it is possible it is slightly conservative. Be interested to hear how they shoot?

 

[pruhdlr]

Oldie But A goodie

I walked into Kittery Trading Post(Kittery,Maine) on an afternoon back in 1981 looking for a(any)22-250. This was to be my Maine woodchuck gun. Walking down thru the racks and racks of new and used weapons I first came across two Ruger #1V's. Both factory new and chambered in 7mm Rem mag and 300 Win mag. Wish I'd have bought 'em both. I continued on to find two Savage 112V's,both series J. One in 22-250 and the other in 220Swift.

I asked to take the action outta the stocks and to borrow a light to take a gander at the throats/bbl's. This I was granted. The bbl on the Swift looked better to me and the sales person said that the previous owner was a reloader and had used only hand loads thru the weapon. At the time all the factory loadings(especially the Norma)was loaded to bbl burning velocities so i quickly changed my love from the 22-250 to the Swift. The weapon was riding home with me and the store had my $180. So was dies,brass,powder,etc.

Over the years I have killed 'bout everything that Maine has to offer except deer,bear,and moose,with the weapon. It has shot the smallest group that I have ever shot with any other weapon,even a bench rest gun. With 50gr Bergers .227",aggregate of 10 shots(2,5 shot groups)One dry patch between each shot.

Hopefully the 50gr "TSX" will work for me and the weapon can once again,move to the front of my safe. -----pruhdlr

 

[MikeG]

The old 53gr. "XBT" bullet that I have loaded up measure 0.772," and yes, weigh 53 grains (52.9gr. for the one I pulled). In my youthful ignorance, loaded them to 2.530" which puts maybe a tenth of an inch of bearing surface in the case. Did all this with a Lee Target Model loader.

What can I say.... sometimes ignorance is bliss!!!!

I've been on the other side of the equation, and had trouble stabilizing stuff that worked for other people. You never know till you try. Thought I had a box of 60gr. Partitions around here, I am going to try them if I can find any.

 

[br549y]

Just my 2 cents ,
but
I've killed lots of Montana Whitetails and Muleys with my 220 Swift using 50 and 52 gr bullets with no problem .. just hold behind the ear and down they go like a falling log ! Never had the need for heavy bullets in the Swift. I shoot a Ruger M77 bull barrel that I've had for 30 years , not sure of the twist rate though.

 

[pruhdlr]

Length vs ........

.......twist vs speed vs bullet makeup. This is a real head scratcher for me. I have shot chucks with my Swift and the bullet never exited. These bullets were the 50gr Hornady "SX",50gr Speer "TNT",and even the 50gr Nosler Expander. I have hit a yote just under the ear and it took off his head except for a small length of skin. This with a 50gr NosBalTip @ 3850fps.

Mike, even though the OAL of the 60gr Partitions are .799" which are waaaay over the "legal" limit, I feel that the added speed of the Swift and 22-250 will make up somewhat for the 1:14 twist. We can shoot the heavier bullets 600+ FPS faster than a .223. A 1:10 twist bbl with the bullet just under 3000fps will stabilize. I shot bunches of these outta a Ruger Mini-14.

My question would be....how does the 60gr NosPart perform when hitting a deer/hog, going 600+ fps faster than it comes outta a .223 ?? Will the additional speed allow the front half to somewhat stay in tact and allow the partition to push it on through ??

br549y, my Sierra loading manual shows the Ruger77 to be a 1:14 twist bbl also. The 50-53's (lead makeup)bullets should have no problem with stabilization. Especially if driven at the "normal" speeds. Any CNS hit on any animal WILL immediately end it's day. Especially the deer sized animals where the super fast bullets are very explosive and create a hugh shock wave. The spinal chord does not have to be actually severed to drop an animal(or human),severe pressure/shock will do it. The shock of a very fast projectile is a prime example.

All in all....the 22-250's and the 220Swifts are a great killer IF used with a healthy dose of common sense. The right speed,the right bullet,the right range,and more importantly,the right point of impact,to me,are very important for using these chamberings for the animals larger than varmints.

Good Shootin' -----pruhdlr

 

[unclenick]

Pruhdir,

You are correct that velocity improves stability (spins the bullet faster) but not in proportion. The reason is that at higher speed the bullet plows through higher air resistance which tries harder to flip the bullet over to make it tumble. That means it needs faster rotation to resist that greater overturning force. So the higher velocity does give higher RPM, but the advantage is largely neutralized by the greater drag.

In the case of Mike's bullet, I get a stability factor of .88 at 3500 fps, and .91 at 3850 fps. It still takes some distance for an unstable spinning bullet to wobble its nose out far enough to be overturned, so I wouldn't be surprised if we are simply seeing these things making it far enough to become stable before they tumble. At those high velocities, the bullets lose velocity rapidly after exiting the muzzle. Basically, you would see the noses describe a gradually growing spiral until, in a badly unstable bullet, the bullet is flipped by the air pressure. But if the bullet it makes it 20 or 30 yards or so, the nose motion will first stop growing the spiral radius, instead describing a circle, then, as it slows further, the nose will start tracing a spiral that turns back inward to the center of the trajectory path.

My yardage estimate, by the way, is based on using Geoffry Kolbe's formula for estimating air resistance reduction of rotation rate. It is,

N=Nm*e^(-0.035*t/d)

where N is the rotation rate in the units of your choice (rpm or rps or whatever), Nm is the rate of rotation at the muzzle exit in the same units, t is the time of flight in seconds and d is the bullet diameter in inches. It is conceivable, with its shallow rifling, that rotation rate slowing may be less for the .224 than it would be for a projectile with 0.004" deep rifling. Most of the effect is boundary layer friction, not related to the rifling depth, but there may be some influence from it.

The calculation creates a new rifling twist that would be used to produce the reduced rpm if the muzzle velocity for the bullet were the reduced projectiles velocity at the yardage transit time.

 

[pruhdlr]

Got 'Em

I got the delivery of the Barnes 50gr. "TSX". They mic out at .7335". I noticed a load on the Barnes website for this bullet using between 40.5 and 43.5grs of H380. This will give me between 3700 and 3929fps outta a 24"bbl.(mine is 26) I will try to get between 3800 and 3850 if possible. On the Barnes site it lists this load is for a 1:14 twist bbl. The bullet BC is a "mear" .197 also.

I will put up any goods or bads that I encounter with these "no lead" types. Looking at these bullets I am wondering what will the fairly deep, twin grooves that are cut into the bearing surface of these bullets(obviously NOT cannelures) do to the back pressure that creates velocity,and/or accuracy.

Anyway....thanks for all the help and insight guys. -----pruhdlr
Edit to add---> for info on bullet lengths,take a look at the JBM Calculations website. He has a fairly extensive list there, broken down by manuf,caliber,and weight.

 

[MikeG]

Varget works well, too, if you have that on hand. Hope to hear some good reports!

 

[PAShooter]

Reading these replies makes me think that I must have some very odd results from my older Ruger heavy barreled Swift. My most accurate bullet is a 60 gr. Hornady. This rifle is accurate with many bullets, but I have had 5 shot groups under 1" @ 300 yds. with 60 gr. Hornady.

 

[pruhdlr]

Well,Maybe Not

My book shows that your Ruger 77 is a 1:14 twist also. On the JBM site I find that the Hornady 60gr Spire Point is only .700" long.(that seems kinda short,but.....)

If this is true, this would be the reason that your Ruger will shoot the Hornady's so good. Do me a favor and measure the Hornady's and see if you get .700" also. -----pruhdlr

 

[PAShooter]

I checked my notes and I shot a .87" group @300 yards with the 60 grain Hornady through the Ruger 77 26" barreled Swift. I still have the target from 1987.