[broom_jm]

Has anyone ever heard of a single tool (cartridge-specific?) that will turn the outside of the neck and ream the inside of the neck, all in one operation?

 

[broom_jm]

Maybe I'm being naive, but from a machining standpoint, would it really be that hard? I'm thinking the tolerance between inner and outer cutter would be the most difficult thing to get right. If it "head-spaced" on the shoulder would it also be able to trim the length, at the same time?

 

[broom_jm]

What about a dimensionally correct die that could be used as part of an annealing process, to ensure internal and external concentricity, just before quenching the case?

 

[ranger335v]

"..a single tool (cartridge-specific?) that will turn the outside of the neck and ream the inside of the neck, all in one operation?"

No such tool exists. And, really, it need not exist.

Reaming (alone) does nothing but enlarge the neck inside diameter, if it is thick but inconsistant it will become thinner and inconsistant.

A turner works the necks between a central mandrel and the cutter so the necks become both thinner and consistant; a much better deal.

 

[broom_jm]

"..a single tool (cartridge-specific?) that will turn the outside of the neck and ream the inside of the neck, all in one operation?"

No such tool exists. And, really, it need not exist.

Reaming (alone) does nothing but enlarge the neck inside diameter, if it is thick but inconsistant it will become thinner and inconsistant.

A turner works the necks between a central mandrel and the cutter so the necks become both thinner and consistant; a much better deal.

So, if the inside of your case neck is not concentric, a reamer will not improve this condition? Does this mean most neck thickness concerns are with the outside dimension, not the inside? Would you need some kind of lathe to accurately true up the inside of a neck that was not concentric?

 

[spitfire_er]

I would think that all you would need to do is to turn ether the inside or the outside of the neck. You still need a reference point to run off. If you had two cutters going simultaneously, you would not have that reference point other than maybe the body of the case which may or may not be true. The point of neck turning is to make a concentric wall thickness, after you fire form it, it is going to be concentric to your chamber if it is a good chamber. Then depending on how you work your neck, that will decide how well aligned it is to the rifling.

I don't see a need for a double cutter due to the fact that it is not necessary and would not be as efficient as a single sided turner.

 

[spitfire_er]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always thought the reason for neck turning was not about concentricity, but more about getting rid of the excess brass that migrates toward the case neck. You don't want an overly thick case neck putting a death grip on your bullet when the cartridge is chambered. If concentricity was the end goal I think you would ream the inside of the neck and then turn the outside of the neck. I believe the people that shoot at such extreme ranges that every little bit is required do this. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but I still want that die Broom dreamed up.

Outside neck reaming will take care of concentric problems and neck thickness due to brass migration. After outside neck reaming it may not be aligned, but after you fire form it, it will straighten out and be as perfect as your chamber is. The only thing that inside neck reaming will do is smooth out any rough spots, this can be done with polishing with something like steel wool on a brush. After the outside neck turned case is fired, if your chamber is good, your neck should be perfectly concentric and thickness should be consistent. If you can perfectly size that case/neck, you will have a perfectly concentric/square neck.

Also if you had a double cutter, and you ran off the body, you will more than likely end with a "wobble" effect which could really screw up the neck walls. I'll have to agree though it's a neat idea!

 

[fguffey]

Yes I have, not in the way you have described but the very high end of sizing and inside neck reaming has been available from RCBS for years, expensive but precision, the combination is a full length sizer die that uses a reamer centered in the top of the die, size the case, insert the reamer, ream the inside of the neck, the neck is in the absolute center of the neck supported by the die. I have one in 243.

F. Guffey

 

[broom_jm]

Yes I have, not in the way you have described but the very high end of sizing and inside neck reaming has been available from RCBS for years, expensive but precision, the combination is a full length sizer die that uses a reamer centered in the top of the die, size the case, insert the reamer, ream the inside of the neck, the neck is in the absolute center of the neck supported by the die. I have one in 243.

F. Guffey

I'm having a hard time envisioning that...does it ream and outside turn, at the same time, or just ream?

 

[fguffey]

The die is a sizer die with a guide in the top instead of a primer punch.sizer ball assembly, the case is first sized, while still in the die the reamer is installed into the top (guide) at the same time it is turned to ream, the outside of the neck is sized, the inside of the neck is reamed, reamers cost about $70.00 each and are available in thousands.

1 800 533 5000 RCBS

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=396818

F. Guffey

 

[MikeG]

No need for such a contraption (with both inside and outside cutters). Since the brass is easily formed (relative to other metals), push a mandrel into the case mouth. Inside diameter is now exactly the size of the mandrel.

Cut off excess on the outside with the neck turner.

Or, alternatively, push the case into a die where the outside of the neck is sized down exactly, and run a supported reamer in (per the Lee Target Model Loader).

The reason such a contraption doesn't exist, is there are at least to better and cheaper solutions on the market......

 

[broom_jm]

No need for such a contraption (with both inside and outside cutters). Since the brass is easily formed (relative to other metals), push a mandrel into the case mouth. Inside diameter is now exactly the size of the mandrel.

Cut off excess on the outside with the neck turner.

Or, alternatively, push the case into a die where the outside of the neck is sized down exactly, and run a supported reamer in (per the Lee Target Model Loader).

The reason such a contraption doesn't exist, is there are at least to better and cheaper solutions on the market......

Mike, thanks for putting that in a way that finally makes sense to me...just another example of me trying to make things too complicated.

Now, what about the idea of a single tool, with precise neck dimensions, that the neck of a case could be slid into immediately after being heated to the proper temperature for annealing? Would there be any value in such a process? In other words, would inserting the case into a perfect die while it is warm, shape it perfectly and then hold that shape, when it is quenched?

Would there be any logic in something like a standard die actually having a low-voltage current running through it that first shapes the neck, then quickly heats it to proper annealing temperature in a set, timed operation? One of the challenges of annealing is to get only the neck heated up, to the right temperature. Maybe a tool like this would shape the neck properly and then relieve the stress on the metal, created by working it, all in one step?

 

[fguffey]

cvc944, I agree, with the misinformation about pulling the the expander ball through the neck after sizing and concentric cases being elusive, the reamer die with a reasonable price reamer would only leave one tool to go, that would be a seater die with case body support.

F. Guffey

 

[MikeG]

Mike, thanks for putting that in a way that finally makes sense to me...just another example of me trying to make things too complicated.

Now, what about the idea of a single tool, with precise neck dimensions, that the neck of a case could be slid into immediately after being heated to the proper temperature for annealing? Would there be any value in such a process? In other words, would inserting the case into a perfect die while it is warm, shape it perfectly and then hold that shape, when it is quenched?

Would there be any logic in something like a standard die actually having a low-voltage current running through it that first shapes the neck, then quickly heats it to proper annealing temperature in a set, timed operation? One of the challenges of annealing is to get only the neck heated up, to the right temperature. Maybe a tool like this would shape the neck properly and then relieve the stress on the metal, created by working it, all in one step?

I'm not sure if that would have any benefits.

 

[ranger335v]

"So, if the inside of your case neck is not concentric, a reamer will not improve this condition?"

Correct. All a reamer will do is remove an equal amount of interior metal all around. If one side starts out 10% thinner than the other it will still be that way after reaming.


Does this mean most neck thickness concerns are with the outside dimension, not the inside?'

Sorta I guess, but not quite that way. I mean, the thickess is the thickness. It's not inside or out, it's the total variation at any one place we are concerned with. Since we can only control the cutter from the outside that's what we cut.


"Would you need some kind of lathe to accurately true up the inside of a neck that was not concentric?"

Again yes, sorta. Fact is, a neck turner IS a lathe in it's effect. A rigidly held, snuggly fitted inner pilot is inserted in the neck first becoming, in effect, the "reference" someone mentioned above. If the cutter is then adjusted 13 thou away from the pilot the hand driven and rotated case neck will end up 13 thou thick all the way around. After the prepped case is loaded and fired the neck will be pretty well "centered" on the case and concentric with the chamber.

Once again, a reamer cannot do that; it only thins. Turners cost a lot more than reamers and rightly so. A reamer is a single bit of metal, a turner is much more complex and expensive to make. Mine has a carbide cutter blade and a "micrometer" adjustment screw to set neck thickness.

I think the Forster HOT-100 turner (Midway, about $60) offers the best value. I also have a few Forster neck reamers (Sinclair, about $18) but I only use them when drastically reforming cases, such as when making .22-250 from .30-06, just to "rough out" some exess metal. But I end up turning the final case necks to insure they are the correct thickness for my chamber AND are that the inside and outside are concentric.