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Discussion Starter #1
I have two 40 S&W carbines that I'm wanting to shoot suppressed with 200gr powder coated RN Acme bullets.
I haven't been able to locate any data for what I'm wanting to do, and none of my data manual's list a 200 gr Cast bullet.

If anyone can help me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
 

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3.2 to 3.6 grains of Hodgdon TiteGroup should work fine with your 200 grain lead bullet. in a carbine it should push 750 to 950 fps depending on barrel fit and length.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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Just be aware of squibs when trying to build "secret spy rounds"

RJ
 

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Going off the menu for a blow-back operated semi-auto.....start LOW and work up.

200gr....faster rate powder (really fast...like Bullseye fast).....start too low (like 3 gr.)....work up in steps until it cycles when the carbine is clean....don't clean it, add whatever more powder it needs when dirty (likely about 10-15%)....you're good. If it ends up 864fps or 903fps...who gives a "carp"?

Form all the blow back rifles I've played with...heavy eights and fast powders cycle quicker/sooner/lower speeds ...so it's the direction I go to for well sub-sonic. Well be well below the speed of sound, and have the bonus of less gas pressure/noise at the muzzle.
 

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The problem with starting low is....stuck bullets. Not just a annoyance, but a safety issue if one doesn’t notice the lack of a bullet hole in the target. And if you start too low you’ll have a lot of stuck bullets to contend with as you slowly increase the charge weight.

Probably safer to start with a listed starting load and go down from there - then when you stick a bullet you’ll know the minimum safe load, velocity be damned. Since the OP is shooting supressed, low muzzle pressure/noise won’t be a big issue for him.




.
 

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I charge all my subs, and medium velocity rounds, with Trail Boss.

Trail Boss load data instructions are,... measure the depth you seat your bullet, charge the case UP TO THAT POINT, up to the BOTTOM OF THE BULLET! Then weigh that powder charge,... subtract 30%, and you have your starting load.

I currently use Trail boss in marlin444, 30-06sprg, 44mag, 38spl, 45acp45colt, and 223rem... using the same load data procedure,... FOR ALL!

I have used this load data on other calibers, as well, but, I have been trying to cut down on the numbers, for the past couple years. I believe Trail Boss can be loaded in any caliber, for subsonic, or, moderate velocities.

I have experimented with less than this -30% minimum charge, in 223rem, that resulted in a half dozen squibs before I got what I wanted. What I wanted, was,... to allow me a more quiet barn yard vermin load! Only down side,.... I can only shoot them through my pump action rifle, which I really like to shoot, so, not really a down side.;)
 

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Try 3.2 grains of Bullseye.
 
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Lets put it this way.

Peak pressure pretty well runs a blow back action.

Muzzle pressure/volume of gas pretty well corresponds to the noise of the "blast".

Considering being QUIET (why else go sub-sonic?). Really no benefit to going sub-sonic unless you are suppressing....it's just not all that bare-barrel quiet either way...suppressors work on the3 muzzle pressure/gas volume.

Going too far with a fast powder/heavy bullet in a blow back will just open the beach early, making for a blast of pressure/noise at the breech.

Using slower powders delays opeing, but increases muzzle pressure/gas volume at the muzzle/;

Of the two..find it quieter to use the fast powder/early peak pressure/lower exit pressure.
 

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Based on what others have reported, Trail Boss in the 9 mm may not produce enough pressure/gas volume to push a bullet out of a carbine barrel. The 9 mm case volume is far smaller than the cartridges this powder was designed for. And, it may not produce enough pressure to cycle a semi auto. This isn’t a lever action.....

PS - never compress Trail Boss!

.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks guy's!
I'll try some Titegroup since I have plenty on hand and see where it takes me. I will report back with the results.
 

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What happens in any firearm is you have ejecta leave the muzzle (everything that is pushed out; bullet, powder gases, unburned grains, soot, etc.) and, by Newton's Third Law, equal and opposite momentum imparted to the firearm. If the slide can move independently of the frame, it picks up most of that momentum initially and transfers it to the frame by compressing the recoil spring and banging into the frame at full counterbattery. So the question is, will your combination of ejecta masses and their velocities (m×v=momentum) accomplish that well enough to function the gun? A low-velocity load may not do that.

On the other hand, back when mob hitmen used suppressed .22 LRs firing through pillows and briefcases to do their work, they wanted minimal sound, so what they did was put a slide block on a gun to hold the slide closed when they fired it. They would unlock it and manually chamber the next round if needed. The reason was to stop the gasses still present in the bore at the ejection of a case from adding its own "pop" noise to the proceedings. So you should get better suppression with failure to open the action anyway. Just operate it manually if quietude is your goal.
 

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When you start testing loads ... bring a range rod and mallet to drive out any "stuck" bullets and make dang sure every bullet leaves the barrel .
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition , on page 263 , 40 Smith & Wesson , RCBS #10mm-200-SWC has loads with a 200 grain cast SWC with 12 different powders .
None of the starting loads exceed 955 fps. and several are from 832 to 897 fps .
If I knew what powder(s) you have / can get , I would be glad to post the starting loads.

Gary
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Um...... I'm confused.

'Supersonic' is generally considered 1120fps or thereabouts, at sea level, under standard conditions......

Grabbed the nearest loading manual (happened to be Hornady) and NONE of the data for 200gr. bullets, is even within 100 fps of supersonic.

So...... pick a powder..... and see how it works, as far as noise. Most of the noise will likely depend on the design of the suppressor, itself. A rifle length barrel will probably pick up a few FPS, but I doubt it starting loads for 200gr bullets will end up supersonic. The data in the Hornady manual has starting loads at 700fps out of a pistol barrel. You aren't going to pick up 400fps out of 5-6grains of powder.
 

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That's sure true with 4" barrels, like Hodgdon lists. But with his carbine barrels, I think a lot of those will break the sea level, standard condition sound barrier. QuickLOAD thinks so, anyway.
 
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Um...... I'm confused.

'Supersonic' is generally considered 1120fps or thereabouts, at sea level, under standard conditions......

Grabbed the nearest loading manual (happened to be Hornady) and NONE of the data for 200gr. bullets, is even within 100 fps of supersonic.

So...... pick a powder..... and see how it works, as far as noise. Most of the noise will likely depend on the design of the suppressor, itself. A rifle length barrel will probably pick up a few FPS, but I doubt it starting loads for 200gr bullets will end up supersonic. The data in the Hornady manual has starting loads at 700fps out of a pistol barrel. You aren't going to pick up 400fps out of 5-6grains of powder.
In the original post by txhillbilly ... I read " Need Help Making Sub-Sonic 40 S&W Loads "
, when / where did the op's request become information for Super - Sonic loads .
Now ... I'm confused ... Just exactly what data are we looking for here !
Gary
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Um...... I'm confused.

'Supersonic' is generally considered 1120fps or thereabouts, at sea level, under standard conditions......

Grabbed the nearest loading manual (happened to be Hornady) and NONE of the data for 200gr. bullets, is even within 100 fps of supersonic.

So...... pick a powder..... and see how it works, as far as noise. Most of the noise will likely depend on the design of the suppressor, itself. A rifle length barrel will probably pick up a few FPS, but I doubt it starting loads for 200gr bullets will end up supersonic. The data in the Hornady manual has starting loads at 700fps out of a pistol barrel. You aren't going to pick up 400fps out of 5-6grains of powder.
True, There are many listed sub-sonic loads in manual's. But, I'm shooting them out of 16" rifle barrels so the listed velocities will be a lot faster out of my carbines.
I shoot all of my rifles with suppressor's, from 223 - 300 WM. With rifle cartridges, even super sonic velocity loads are suppressed fairly well, but shooting factory super sonic 40 S&W ammo out of my carbines there really isn't any difference in the sound with or without the suppressor on the gun's. I have to get the velocity down to sub-sonic levels in order for the suppressor to actually work.

I'll load some up tomorrow, and see what I get.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I really don't think the starting .40 S&W loads in various manuals with 200gr. bullets will break the sound barrier, in a rifle barrel. That would be astonishing that they could gain 400+ fps with the small amounts of powder involved.... personal opinion.

In any case, with cast bullets, you ought to be able to run them a tad slower than jacketed bullets, without sticking them in the barrel.

The chronograph will tell......
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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OK well those aren't 'starting' loads. Factory loads are going to be at the other end of the spectrum. Have you chronographed factory loads in your 16" carbine barrel?
 

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Do you have any W231 or HP-38? Try 3.0/W231/200 gr. and seat to 1.135" overall length. Work up to no more than 4.0/W231/200 gr.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I couldn't find any published data for the .40 S&W in a 16" barrel..... but I did mock it up in Quickload. Quickload 'thinks' that going from a 4" barrel to a 16" barrel, you'll gain around 200fps or so.

Which to me at least seems a pretty reasonable ball park estimate.... not something I'd be the mortgage payment on, but it ought to be in the neighborhood. So yeah full power loads with 200gr. bullets may well be supersonic, in the rifle barrel.

Anyway if you jump on the Hodgdon site, there's a ton of starting loads that are in the mid 700fps range, going up to the low 800fps range. Those really ought to stay subsonic, without excessive risk of leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel. Any decent suppressor ought to handle the report of 5 or 6 grains of powder burned in a 16" barrel, I'd think.

One range trip ought to prove it.
 
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