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Discussion Starter #1
Hi-

  This is my first post here but I have been reading the board's old messages in the hopes I don't ask you too many questions that have not been answered already.
  Two weeks ago I finally got a new Guide Gun in stainless steel. I just love the gun and have only started testing some loads. The first load I tried was a 405gr bullet cast with a Lee mould [457-405-F] over 12 grains of Unique. I realize this is just barely a plinker for the 45-70 but it amazes me the amont of wallop it has and it shot dead on point of aim at fifty yards with really good groups considering the conditions I was shooting under.
  Moving up to 52 grains of H335 with the same bullet and moving the target back to 90 yards I apprehensively touched off a round waiting for a solid whack in the shoulder. I wasn't dissapointed! Nobody is going to fall asleep shooting those type loads;-). To my surprise the bullet hit a 7inch round rock about a 12 feet in front on the target and split the thing in two. I tried a couple of more rounds and all hit exceedingly low as well. Is this normal in the Guide Gun?
  In any case I getting ahead of myself. Some have stated here that a gas checked bullet is more forgiving and not open to as many variables as one without which certainly makes sense to me. The thing is I do not know which to choose. I just started casting last summer and still have much to learn but I thought a 405gr gas check flat nose would be a good all purpose bullet in the 45-70G yet would like to get some advice before I pick one.
  Maybe I should consider a lighter bullet? I'm writting from Canada and with the exchange rate a mould can be farily expensive so I want to make sure I get one that will be suitable.
  If not a gas check mould Lyman's 457193 looks like it might be a good one in this gun. Any advice would be much apreciated.

BTW, I'm totally impressed by the way your faith  has shaped your business practice Mr. Stanton. You don often see that these days.

God bless
Kevin
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Henri de Lubac
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Kevin:Where are you located? If you're anywhere in the Cariboo I can provide you with samples of 2 RCBS gas checked bullets to try out. They are 327Gr. and 417 Gr. weighed checked and lubed. My preference for practice is the lighter bullet simply because it uses less lead. It would also suffice for deer hunting. The heavier bullet is suitable for almost any thing you are likely to hunt. My current stash of bullets are not cast very hard and about 1450-1500 fps seems to be about max for accuracy. Ten shot groups at 50 yds. run 1 1/4-1 1/2 from my 1886 with a receiver sight.  As soon as it warms up a bit I intend to do a large casting and heat treat them so they handle higher velocities better. Getting molds in Canada is always a bit of a pain but there seems to be more RCBS carried by the wholesalers my gunshop deals with than other brands.  Reading the posts on other web sites Lee molds seem to be pretty variable in casting quality although they are quite reasonable to buy. A lot of the guys report having to doctor them quite a bit to get them casting right.
 

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Kevin
If possible, and you are close enough to the border catch a gun show. You may find a used mold or two for the price of a new one.
I've got little to no use for Lee molds. Nuff said.
I've got 45-70 molds made by Lyman, RCBS, Saeco. All three of these molds produce out standing bullets.
My favorite plinking bullet is from Saeco, it's a 350 grain GC'd flat point that goes like a house afire with RL-7, I've got a 405 grain RCBS GC'd and a Lyman 405 Plain base both did well with IMR3031,  I don't use often. I've got a wonderful old Lyman mold that throws a 445 Gr GC'd bullet that is my hunting bullet, with a bucket full of IMR 4064. And I have a 500 grain GC'd Lyman bullet that I've not used and many years. The 500 grain just plain beat me up.
Jim
 

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Hi, Kevin:
   That .62 cent Loonie really hurts, doesn't it.  I saved considerable coin by buying moulds from Steve Kochak this summer compared to the big Western Canadian mailorder outfit.  Mind you, he had a pile of Lyman stuff that he'd got from a bankruptcy and it's all gone now.   [email protected]

   Your point of impact shift is typical of a heavy bullet in a light gun. I'd estimate your velocities at 1000 fps and 1800 fps. The slow bullet stays in the barrel longer and the gun has more time to rise in recoil.  There's also barrel whip which is unpredictable, at least outside a well equipped labratory.  My .35 Remington has an aburpt shift in point of impact at certain velocities and it varies with the powder.  So the trick is to select a powder that doesn't give you the shift anywhere close to your preferred velocity.  Getting a plinking load and a full snort hunting load to hit the same place might be a bit tricky.

  Can't figure why more people don't put their state or province in their profile.  A new caster was posting about his troubles a while back and an old-timer who lived 20 miles away gave him a holler.  He spent an afternoon casting with the old boy, learned a ton and came home with some goodies that the old boy gave him a real deal on.  

Bye
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi guys-

  Sorry for not being more specific on where I'm located. Unfortunately it is a little too far to take you up on your kind offer BCstocker since I'm on the other side of the country in Nova Scotia;-(.
  That .62 dollar certainly does hurt. To give an example to our American friends, in a fit of enthusiasm I ordered 50 cast bullets from a supplier in the U.S which cost $16.00. It cost $16.00 for shipping and customs tacked $8 on for handling and GST. The two $16.00 charges where in U.S. funds so I ended up paying over fifty dollars for 50 lead bullets! Way too much.
  Jack, I never knew that recoil would affect impact like that. I've got five pounds of H4198 on the way because it appears to be a powder that can be used for a wide range of power levels in the 45-70. Would you reccomend it? My prefered velocity will probably be somewhere around 1300 to 1500fps for plinking. And I'll give Steve Kochak a call for sure.
  I was leaning towards the 405gr simply because it appeared to be the traditional standard weight but since I purchased this gun primarily for the pure fun of shooting and shooting a lot I think the 350gr Saeco and 327gr RCBS look promising from what you all say. Is there a significant reduction in recoil by using the lighter bullet? As well, I think I recall Marshall Stanton writing that 95% of Marlin rifles in 45-70 do best with a cast bullet of .460 diameter. Will either of these moulds drop bullets of that size or at least .459?
  BTW, does anyone have any suggestions as to what is going on with my Lee mould. I'm having one awful time trying to get the bullets to fall from the mould. I've smoked it and also tried some stuff called Rapine mould release but have not had much luck. The strange thing is is that the bullet will stick to one side one day and the other side the next. Arkypete, I must say I thought about firing one of those bullets at the thing last night;-)  

That's enough for now I guess.

God bless
Kevin
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Truth is not concerned with how many it persuades.
Henri de Lubac
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Kevin: Yep,we're a ways apart though I have a cousin who lives in Cornwallis. The RCBS mold for the 327 gr is a 2 cavity while the 417 gr is a single. This doubles your production when casting and saves you 200 grains of lead+- each time. Believe me these big bullets really eat up the lead.
Assuming similar velocities you will note less recoil with the lighter bullet.
H4198 is very useful as is IMR3031 and 5744 if you can find it, One of the reloader series (can't remember which offhand, mightbe Re7) is also good. Loads in the velocity range you referred to are quite pleasant to shoot. Once you approach 1800 with the heavier bullet it really starts to get your attention.
Point of impact does vary considerably between bullet weights and you are either adjusting your sight or varying your sight picture to compensate.
I have a Williams foolproof on my rifle and it is not a convenient sight to make quick elevation changes with. If you can find a Lyman 66 receiver sight with the push button elevation slide release it would be an easy trick just to keep notes of the correct setting for each load and change as you need. I have had one ordered for nearly a year and no luck. I suspect the wholesaler in Vancouver is not even trying but what can you do? Any how I think you will have a lot of fun at the range with your rifle. I know I have.
 

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Kevin: re: your Lee mold. You didn't say how badly the bullets stick. Do you have to rap the hinge repeatedly to get the bullet to drop or does a tap or two do the trick? You can try starting from scratch by using a good degreaser and resmoking it. Also check for any small burrs in the grooves that may be hanging it up. They can be polished a bit to slick them up as well but go easy as you can change the dimensions. For degreasing you can use bore scrubber or auto parts degreaser which comes in spray cans. Don't use any mineral spirit based cleaners as they leave an oily residue.
 

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Hi, Kevin:
     I don't have a .45-70 so I can't recommend any loads, but lots of the Forum members do, so you should get some good advice shortly.  The same applies to Lee moulds.

Bye
Jack



<!--EDIT|Jack Monteith|Feb. 19 2002,10:17-->
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi guys-

  BCstocker the bullets stick so badly that I have to remove some with a pair of pliers after giving up rapping the hinge. I'll try and clean the thing up again with auto parts degreaser and start over.
  The closest thing I've found to the 327gr is a 300gr RCBS mould is at: http://www.rcbs.com/equipment/moulds5.html
Is that like the one you are using? What do you size them to? Having it in two cavity would be a big plus for sure cause I think I'm going to go through bullets like an IPSC shooter with this gun;-)
  I've got a Lyman 66 receiver sight on a model 94 Wincherster already so am familier with it and agree that it is a great sighting system but I'm not yet decided on what to replace the factory sights with. The sight from Ashly Outdoors looks good to me as well. If your tired of waiting for yours you  can call Lyman direct at 800-22-LYMAN and order the sight right from the company. I did this and it was sent out right away.
  As far as powder goes I order all of mine from Ammo-mart in Ontario. I don't know if you are familier with them but they have the best prices I've seen in Canada. Only thing is that they carry Hodgdon and IMR exclusively.
 
God bless
Kevin
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Henri de Lubac
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Kevin; RCBS does list their FNGC with a 300 number. It doesn't cast 300gr. Mine come out the mold (10 lbs WW -1/2 lb 50-50 solder) at very close to 324-325. Add gas check and lube and its about 327.  This bullet could have used a slightly bigger meplat for hunting but it's pretty good.  For your info my practice load with it is 38 grains IMR 3031. That is a very accurate load in my rifle but is not a clean burner and a lot of powder granules are left in the bore and even the case. Fed 215 primers did not improve this so I'm using 210's. If I find a cleaner burning powder that groups as well I will be changing. Have a variety loaded and have to get to the range. For the 417 (I think RCBS refers to it as a 405) FNGC 42 grs IMR3031 is my current accuracy load. Suspect with harder bullets this can be increased considerably. Again I have a few new loads to test with other powders at the practice level. I've loaded the 405 gr Rem. jacketed to 53 grains 3031 but accuracy was best at 51 grains so settled on that as being more than adequate for moose,elk, bear, etc.. I am shooting a new production 1886 Extra Light rifle and have encountered no excessive pressure indicators at those levels and could possibly increase it. Don't see any point to it.  Recoil and control of the rifle are really limiting factors. The factory stock finish is some kind of very slick synthetic and it is hard to keep it in your left hand when shooting full power loads. Plan to checker it in the next couple of weeks to get a better grip. May replace the finish with tung oil at the same time.  I wouldn't go that high with 3031 in an older 1886 although I know some guys used to. Ken Waters advises against it and I don't see any point in beating up older rifles.
Thanks for the Lyman #.
 

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Kevin; RCBS does list their FNGC with a 300 number. It doesn't cast 300gr. Mine come out the mold (10 lbs WW -1/2 lb 50-50 solder) at very close to 324-325. Add gas check and lube and its about 327.  This bullet could have used a slightly bigger meplat for hunting but it's pretty good.  For your info my parctice load with it is 38 grains IMR 3031. That is a very accurate load in my rifle but is not a clean burner and a lot of powder granules are left in the bore and even the case. Fed 215 primers did not improve this so use 210's. If I find a cleaner burning powder that groups as well I will be changing. Have a variety loaded and have to get to the range. For the 417 (I think RCBS refers to it as a 405) FNGC 42 grs IMR3031 is my current accuracy load. Suspect with harder bullets this can be increased considerably. Again I have a few new loads to test with other powders at the practice level. I've loaded the 405 gr Rem. jacketed to 53 grains 3031 but accuracy was best at 51 grains so settled on that as being more than adequate for moose,elk, bear, etc.. I am shooting a new production 1886 Extra Light rifle and have encountered no excessive pressure indicators at those levels and could possibly increase it. Don't see any point to it.  Recoil and control of the rifle are really limiting factors. The factory stock finish is some kind of very slick synthetic and it is hard to keep it in your left hand when shooting full power loads. Plan to checker it in the next couple of weeks to get a better grip. May replace the finish with tung oil at the same time.  I wouldn't go that high with 3031 in an older 1886 although I know some guys used to. Ken Waters advises against it and I don't see any point in beating up older rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
BCstocker-

  I suspected that the 300 grainer was the mold you were using but it was a surprise to me that the weight would be that much greater than what the factory states. Good to know.
  Hope to pick one up sometime soon. Thanks for the help.

God bless
Kevin
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Henri de Lubac
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Hi, Kevin:
    The weight of a bullet that a given mould casts depends on the alloy used.  The mould maker claims mould xxxxxx will cast xxx grains with alloy X.  Lyman uses their Number 2 alloy which is 90% lead, 5% tin and 5% antimony.  IIRC, RCBS uses linotype, 84-4-12.  Stocker's alloy is about 94-3-3.  Now tin and antimony weigh a lot less than pure lead, so a mould speced with linotype is going to cast a heavy bullet with Stocker's alloy. Final diameter also varies with the alloy, since antimony expands when it solidifies.
An example from Lyman.
Lead - 276 grains - .3773"
WW - 272 grains - .3779"
#2 - 264 grains - .3785"
Lino - 256 grains - .3789"

Bye
Jack
 

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<!--QuoteBegin--kevinm+Feb. 19 2002,05:45--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kevinm @ Feb. 19 2002,05:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi guys-

  Sorry for not being more specific on where I'm located. Unfortunately it is a little too far to take you up on your kind offer BCstocker since I'm on the other side of the country in Nova Scotia;-(.
  That .62 dollar certainly does hurt. To give an example to our American friends, in a fit of enthusiasm I ordered 50 cast bullets from a supplier in the U.S which cost $16.00. It cost $16.00 for shipping and customs tacked $8 on for handling and GST. The two $16.00 charges where in U.S. funds so I ended up paying over fifty dollars for 50 lead bullets! Way too much.
  Jack, I never knew that recoil would affect impact like that. I've got five pounds of H4198 on the way because it appears to be a powder that can be used for a wide range of power levels in the 45-70. Would you reccomend it? My prefered velocity will probably be somewhere around 1300 to 1500fps for plinking. And I'll give Steve Kochak a call for sure.
  I was leaning towards the 405gr simply because it appeared to be the traditional standard weight but since I purchased this gun primarily for the pure fun of shooting and shooting a lot I think the 350gr Saeco and 327gr RCBS look promising from what you all say. Is there a significant reduction in recoil by using the lighter bullet? As well, I think I recall Marshall Stanton writing that 95% of Marlin rifles in 45-70 do best with a cast bullet of .460 diameter. Will either of these moulds drop bullets of that size or at least .459?
  BTW, does anyone have any suggestions as to what is going on with my Lee mould. I'm having one awful time trying to get the bullets to fall from the mould. I've smoked it and also tried some stuff called Rapine mould release but have not had much luck. The strange thing is is that the bullet will stick to one side one day and the other side the next. Arkypete, I must say I thought about firing one of those bullets at the thing last night;-)  

That's enough for now I guess.

God bless
Kevin
***********
Truth is not concerned with how many it persuades.
Henri de Lubac
********[/quote]
Kevin
You made a good choice. IMR 4198 is very good in the 45/70,in that velocity range. Another good powder,a little slower,is Reloader 7.
Good luck,
Frank
 

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Gentlemen...

And I thought I was the only one frustrated with the Lee molds...My .45-70 405g mold is suffering from the same malady.  I have deburred it with a jeweler's file, lightly scrubbed it with superfine steel wool, degreased and smoked it, and it still sticks!  Mine cannot decide which side to stick it to, either.  There seems to be no reason to it.  The only thing that seems to help is letting it cool a little longer.  I guess I shouldn't expect much from a $17 mold, but it would be easier to deal with if it were at least consistent.  If I happen across some magical fix, I'll post it.

Cordially,

Smith
 

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Smith
I've found that Lee molds, this is experience of 20 years or more, do their best for me when I open their box and dump them directly into the recycling bin. Even better is to take my money make a pile of it and set a match to it.
I cannot get Lee molds to function for me. Everybody else's do fine.
Jim
 

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I'm no fan of Lee molds!  However I do have a solution to you gentlemen with problems with the bullets sticking.  ( I think!!! )

Cast a couple bullets from the mold out of straight wheel-weight alloy, and leave them in the mold to cool.  Then, using the sprue plate as a guide, drill a hole in the base of the bullet, directly through the sprue plate to center the drill.  Drill into the bullet about a quarter of an inch or perhaps a little more. Open the sprue plate, then thread an appropriate size machine screw into the hole, then cut off the head of the screw.  Remove the screw/bullet assembly from the mold, and chuck the screw shank into a variable speed power drill.  Then, using some powdered pumice (ground off of a toilet scouring bar), lightly dust the inside of your bullet mold cavities, and close the mold with light firm hand-pressure around the bullet/screw assembly.  Then very slowly rotate the unit in the pumice dusted mold cavity.  This will burnish off any burrs in the cavity, and will, with prolonged use, very uniformly open-up a mold cavity to thow a larger diameter bullet if desired.

Bullets should drop from your mold quite easily after thusly treating them.

Blessings,

Marshall
 

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Sounds like the problem some of you are having is due to mould cavities being out of round.  Mould temp. being off will cause sticking, even with aluminum, bot not THAT bad if the mould was made right to begin with.  Take some bullets cast from your mould, and measure the dia. all the way around.  If the difference is more than .002" the mould is junk and should be sent back to its maker to be fixed.  If enough people did that MAYBE Lee would quit cranking out such abject junk.
mark
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks to all who offered advice on this thread. After more cleaning and an aplication of Rapine the mold is dropping bullets much easier. It is out of round though by .002 and when it really starts heating up [which is only after a dozen pours] and the bullets get frosty they start separating at the last lube groove. Too bad because the mold starts to fill out much better when it is really hot. Rather that messing with it anymore I'm just going to get a better mold.

God bless
Kevin
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Henri de Lubac
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