[DCAMM94]

I just received my new .41 SBH Bisley yesterday. Beautiful revolver. The problem is, I'm using some of Marshall's .41 LFN 250g (.4105 dia), and the throats in the cylinder stop the cartridges from loading a full 1/8 before the round is properly seated. Is this normal? Marshall told me the Bisley .41s were manufactured with tight tolerances, but this is a first for me. Any suggestions? Do I need to measure and see if my throats are tighter than .4105? I'm sure most folks will tell me I'll need to take some measurements before they can comment, but I was shocked. These rounds work fine in my .41 Mag Redhawk. Thanks.

Deck

 

[Bill M]

Wow! Can't wait to see how this one turns out. I agree that you'll need to measure the cylinder throats. Of all the Ruger revolvers I've owned, only the short little SP-101 was sensitive to bullet diameter in chambering a round. But it is possible Ruger made yours to minimum specs... just doubtful.

I am wondering if the sticking is happening in the chamber rather than the throats. Do you use a Lee Factory Crimp die? It runs the finished cartridge down to factory spec. Are you totally sure you are fully resizing the case? I apologize for asking such a question but I'm hunting in the dark for the cause of the problem. Tight chambers (if that's the case) bring on a whole new set of problems.

It's also possible Ruger cut the cylinder throats too small for the cartridge. They have occasionally done this in 45 Colt Black Hawks making for needless hassle for their owners.

Basically I'm suggesting you go over everything to make sure all is in spec. Check your cylinder throats diameter. Go from there. You have a real treasure in your 41 Redhawk. Lucky guy!

I've never shot the 250gr Beartooth bullet but have shot the 265gr quite a bit. Great bullet. Other guys have done well with the 280gr also.

 

[DCAMM94]

Thanks Bill. A bit more information - I'm using RCBS dies for my handloads. The same dies load 210gr XTPs and those fit fine in the SBH and RH cylinders. I can take a 250gr LFN cartridge and seat it fine in the RH, but it stops .125" short in the SBH. I have to think its the throats in the cylinder, but I'll measure tonight when I get home.

As for my handloads, I fully resize and use the RCBS factory three-die standard set. The particular loads I was trying to seat last night were loaded with fully re-sized new Remington brass. Thanks.

Deck

 

[Bill M]

Well Deck... sure sounds like you are doing everything correct. And is sounds exactly like the issues I had with my SP-101 until the cylinder throats were opened up.

Let's see what other guys come up with.

Bill

 

[jwp475]

Thanks Bill. A bit more information - I'm using RCBS dies for my handloads. The same dies load 210gr XTPs and those fit fine in the SBH and RH cylinders. I can take a 250gr LFN cartridge and seat it fine in the RH, but it stops .125" short in the SBH. I have to think its the throats in the cylinder, but I'll measure tonight when I get home.

As for my handloads, I fully resize and use the RCBS factory three-die standard set. The particular loads I was trying to seat last night were loaded with fully re-sized new Remington brass. Thanks.

Deck

Try pushing one of the 250 grain bullets through the cylinder throats with a pencil. If the bullet will not go, then the throats are too small

 

[DCAMM94]

Try pushing one of the 250 grain bullets through the cylinder throats with a pencil. If the bullet will not go, then the throats are too small

I will try that. Sounds like a good idea. Thanks.

 

[Griz]

I will try that. Sounds like a good idea. Thanks.

I was gonna mention that. In tech tips Marshall has a great article on honing those throats to custom fit your bullets. I wouldn't post-resize them if they are deliberately over bore diameter. For example, I shoot .432 bullets in my 44 mag. If I post resize then I lose that extra diameter, and I want that diameter so it will swage and perfectly engrave the rifling. I have the same problem with my redhawk throats and will be resizing them to fit my bullet choice. Otherwise the throat is resizing the bullet before it hits the barrel. And I imagine it is also raising the pressure and lowering velocity. Regards, Grizz

 

[DCAMM94]

I was gonna mention that. In tech tips Marshall has a great article on honing those throats to custom fit your bullets. I wouldn't post-resize them if they are deliberately over bore diameter. For example, I shoot .432 bullets in my 44 mag. If I post resize then I lose that extra diameter, and I want that diameter so it will swage and perfectly engrave the rifling. I have the same problem with my redhawk throats and will be resizing them to fit my bullet choice. Otherwise the throat is resizing the bullet before it hits the barrel. And I imagine it is also raising the pressure and lowering velocity. Regards, Grizz

Thanks, and I totally agree. I'll try to take some pics tonight as I work through the different scenarios and post them so folks can see what I'm talking about. I prefer to have a throat that's the same or a bit narrower than my bullet diameter, and lans that are narrower still (i.e. .411 bullet, .4105 throat, .410 barrel). I'm guessing, though that I might actually have .409 throats based on what I saw last night. Thanks again.

Deck

 

[jwp475]

Thanks, and I totally agree. I'll try to take some pics tonight as I work through the different scenarios and post them so folks can see what I'm talking about. I prefer to have a throat that's the same or a bit narrower than my bullet diameter, and lans that are narrower still (i.e. .411 bullet, .4105 throat, .410 barrel). I'm guessing, though that I might actually have .409 throats based on what I saw last night. Thanks again.

Deck

Your cylinder throats should be about .001" larger than your bore diameter. Don't count on your bore being exactly .410" in a perfect world, maybe but in this world perfect is not likely

 

[DCAMM94]

Best I can measure with my calipers is .4005 for all of the throats. Seems way too small to me. Didn't get pics. Sorry.

 

[Bill M]

Best I can measure with my calipers is .4005 for all of the throats. Seems way too small to me. Didn't get pics. Sorry.

Unless the throat issue is masking something else, I think you have found your problem. .4005 is mightly small any way you look at it. It would easily cause you symptoms. Ruger would almost certanly fix it gratus since the minimum spec is about .410. Might be worth your while to give them a call.

If you have been very happy with the accuracy and performance in your Redhawk, you might check the cylinder throat diameter in that.

 

[jwp475]

If one cylinder throats are over size, it is then a good idea to size your cast bullets to the cylinder throats and let the barrel size them down. The best accuracy and performance will be had with this approach. Unless one want a new cylinder with proper throats which is a bit more of a hassle

 

[rkrcpa]

Send it to Cylindersmith and let him fix it for you.

http://www.cylindersmith.com/

His price and turnaround was very reasonable when he did mine.

 

[DCAMM94]

I may just do that. Can't beat the prices, that's for sure. tonight I slugged the throats, and best I came up with was .410. Using calipers, I measured my groove-to-groove diameter at the muzzle at .4098. I think if I use cylindersmith to get my throats to .4105 and use .410 sized cast, I might just get there. At least it's a starting point. Thoughts? I know marshall's .410 250gr LFNs shoot like gangbusters in my .41 Redhawk. Funny, the throats are the same diameter in the RH as the SBH after closer measurement, but the cylinder is about 1/2" longer, so the bullets load fine because they seat before engaging the throat. The length of the LFN 250's coupled with the shorter cylinder of the SBH appears to be causing the problem with seating the cartridges. I guess I'm glad it happened, because it forced me to become educated on throat/forcing cone/bore and fire lapping (my next project with the new SBH). Maybe I'll make it a shooter yet. I'm sure I'll have more questions. Thanks for all the support so far y'all.

Deck

 

[DCAMM94]

With a slugged throat diameter right at .410, the cylindersmitj won't work on it. I guess I'll try marshall's method with the Emory cloth and my vise. Basically, cylindersmith said he only takes them to .4105, so there was too high a risk of his reamer binding in the throat and either ruining the reamer or the cylinder. When I get back from Seattle this weekend, I guess I'll give it a shot. Either that, or I'll take to someone local. Anyone know a competent revolver smith in Fort Worth? Thanks.

Deck

 

[MikeG]

The emery cloth method should work fine for less than 0.001". I'd start with nothing coarser than 240 grit, maybe even finer. Bet you don't need much.

 

[Bill M]

With a slugged throat diameter right at .410, the cylindersmitj won't work on it. I guess I'll try marshall's method with the Emory cloth and my vise. Basically, cylindersmith said he only takes them to .4105, so there was too high a risk of his reamer binding in the throat and either ruining the reamer or the cylinder. When I get back from Seattle this weekend, I guess I'll give it a shot. Either that, or I'll take to someone local. Anyone know a competent revolver smith in Fort Worth? Thanks.

Deck

Man... this sure isn't going easy for you. If you still want a gunsmith to open the throats you might give David Clements a try. Clements Custom Guns has a link here on Beartooth. David had done different jobs for me over the years (including cylinder throats) and he excellent work. The trick is catching him when he is not busy. Otherwise he does not do the little jobs by themselves. Just send him an email & he will get back to you.

Something else is worth mentioning. The average guy with some training can use a decent set of calipers and measure down to .001 +/- a bit. Working down to the .0001 +/- level and have the number be repeatable is out of the relm of most calipers and people. No disrespect intended but reading back through this thread, I don't know what size your cylinder throats are. That might be why David Clements had always had me send a couple sample bullets along with the cylinder . All we really know for sure is the assembled rounds will not chamber and (like my SP-101) it's probably the perfect storm of bullet design and cylinder throats working against one another. So my humble suggestion is don't get tied up in the numbers as long as you get a good gunsmith (Bowen might do it too). Send him the bullet you want to shoot out of the gun. If you are going to do the project at home be sure to follow Marshall's instructions closely. I have never done it myself but Marshall is a pretty clever fellow.

 

[NHLever]

Man... this sure isn't going easy for you. If you still want a gunsmith to open the throats you might give David Clements a try. Clements Custom Guns has a link here on Beartooth. David had done different jobs for me over the years (including cylinder throats) and he excellent work. The trick is catching him when he is not busy. Otherwise he does not do the little jobs by themselves. Just send him an email & he will get back to you.

Something else is worth mentioning. The average guy with some training can use a decent set of calipers and measure down to .001 +/- a bit. Working down to the .0001 +/- level and have the number be repeatable is out of the relm of most calipers and people. No disrespect intended but reading back through this thread, I don't know what size your cylinder throats are. That might be why David Clements had always had me send a couple sample bullets along with the cylinder . All we really know for sure is the assembled rounds will not chamber and (like my SP-101) it's probably the perfect storm of bullet design and cylinder throats working against one another. So my humble suggestion is don't get tied up in the numbers as long as you get a good gunsmith (Bowen might do it too). Send him the bullet you want to shoot out of the gun. If you are going to do the project at home be sure to follow Marshall's instructions closely. I have never done it myself but Marshall is a pretty clever fellow.

If your gun has been around for a while it was probably produced on the older cylinder tooling. By necessity chambers were reamed from one side, and finish throats from the other end of the cylinder. Thouh it is rare, there is a chance that the chambers, and throats in your gun are not concentric, and that would make the rounds hard to load too. I had a Ruger once that had two chambers that way, and rounds that would load easily in the rest of the chambers would not load in those two......... frustrating, but they did give me a new cylinder.