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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hello all, I'm relatively new to shooting / setting up rifles. I have been shooting them for about 8 years or so now. I recently bought a new Savage storm bolt action in 7mm-08 and had quite a time sighting it in. Out of the box, it was shooting about 36" low and right at 100 yards. I had to run the turrets over and up so far the scope ran out of up adjustment. I sent the rifle back to Savage about a month ago for them to have a look at it. I haven'bnt heard back yet.
I just got my new Browning BAR Mark 3 in 7mm-08. I installed a picatinny style one piece mount, Burris rings, and a Leupold VX-Freedom 3-9x50 scope. With the scope optically centered (using the mirror method) the rifle shoots 18" right and 22" low. It shot a 1" group with 3 rounds of factory ammo but the POI seems way out of whack to me. I tried another scope with the same results.
Is this typical performance of a new gun?? I had much higher hopes for the Browning.
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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hello all, I'm relatively new to shooting / setting up rifles. I have been shooting them for about 8 years or so now. I recently bought a new Savage storm bolt action in 7mm-08 and had quite a time sighting it in. Out of the box, it was shooting about 36" low and right at 100 yards. I had to run the turrets over and up so far the scope ran out of up adjustment. I sent the rifle back to Savage about a month ago for them to have a look at it.
Is this typical performance of a new gun??
Don't use a broad enough brush to say "a new gun", 99% of the time it's something simple like JW said.
MOST gunshops, or inexperienced folks will put the wrong bases on; or put them on Backwards.

Mount your scope and pull the bolt out. Set the gun on the floor/ground/whatever that is stable, I use a bipod. Look through the barrel then the scope. When you get things matched, that is "bore sighted". If you can't get the scope high enough, it's typically 1 of two things.
1) The bases are backwards(front to back), or are the wrong bases.
2) You have a very cheap SFP scope.

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The setup I have on the BAR is an EGW 0 MOA Scope mount, Burris ( I think ) standard scope rings that measure the same with my digital calipers, and a brand new Leupold VX-Freedom scope. I will contact Browning and find out if some type of offset is required on these guns.
 

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Were the Burris rings the ones with the plastic inserts inside the rings? If so, they are made so that you can move the POI by rotating the inserts. I believe they’re called Burris Signature Zee rings. Not all rings have a front and back so that could or could not be the problem. If they have a front and back, the rings will be stamped For R. Check that also. It’s also possible to get a Pictinny mount with a built-in POI adjustment. Some of these are made to raise the POI up to 20” for using at long range. It’s a built in feature for those who want to shoot very long range. Sometimes the top of the receiver on a rifle can be machined off level in a finishing process to the receiver (Savage is somewhat famous for doing this). That can cause the base to sit off level and cause problems like you describe. All of this will show up if you bore sight the scope before starting to sight it. I just recently purchased a new Browning X-Bolt in 6.5 CM that had the rear mounting holes off center and the rifle shot about 14” left at 100 yds. A set of windage adjustable mounts corrected this problem. Bore sight the gun/scope and start from there.
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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So to clarify a bit, which may help with the vision.

That storm is fundamentally a Savage 10/110. There were a few different iterations on that receiver in terms of shape. So while all of the bases all(or may) interchange and fit one another, if it was for a flat receiver and you are putting it on a round one; things are offset in height. Similarly I've bought rings that were for a ...XXX.... but one of them was put in the incorrect packaging.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So to clarify a bit, which may help with the vision.

That storm is fundamentally a Savage 10/110. There were a few different iterations on that receiver in terms of shape. So while all of the bases all(or may) interchange and fit one another, if it was for a flat receiver and you are putting it on a round one; things are offset in height. Similarly I've bought rings that were for a ...XXX.... but one of them was put in the incorrect packaging.
You are absolutely correct. With savage there are round and flat rear receivers, there is long and short action receivers, these both affect the bases. I have a couple of wrong bases in a coffee can downstairs from previous Savage rifles. :) So I am learning the hard way.
In response to input from NSB: the rings I was using on the BAR was not signature rings. I have a set of those, with offset plastic inserts from a Remington 7400 that also had this problem.
I am confident that I had the correct equipment to mount the scope properly on the Savage. The tech at Savage agreed and had me send the gun back to them.
Guess what, .... I was just on the Browning website and had a set of their 1 piece base / rings in my cart about to checkout, but before spending another $74 I called Browning tech support. I talked to a tech and explained what I was seeing and what I had done so far and asked if there was any offset I would need to get the BAR to shoot, he said no. I asked if there was anything else I should try, he said no. He said it should not shoot that low with 0 MOA mounting equipment. He sent me a form and a shipping label to send my second new gun back to the manufacturer.

Thanks for the responses guys. That made me double check everything before I made my next move. And it saved me some money.
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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You are absolutely correct. With savage there are round and flat rear receivers, there is long and short action receivers, these both affect the bases. I have a couple of wrong bases in a coffee can downstairs from previous Savage rifles. :) So I am learning the hard way.
If it makes you feel better, you aren't the only one with that Salvage T-shirt.;)
 

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Well, although it probably can happen you probably have the right base's and rings. Put them on yourself? make sure they are snug, matter of fact blue loc tite on the threads works wonders. Sighting it in once the mounts are on right is simple. Set the rifle up in a stand to hold it in the living room. Remove the bolt and sight through the barrel on a door knob, center it in the bore. Now look through the scope and see where the scope is aiming. Be careful not to move the rifle and move the crosswiresto the door knob! Check it a few times to be sure you haven't bumped the rifle off the door knob. Next go to the range and set up a target at 25yds and fire one shot at it. Notice the shot on the target, re-align the scope on the aiming point you used and move the crosswires to the bullet hole! Next move the target out to 100 yds and fire one round. Realign the site on the aiming point and again move the crosswires to the bullet hole. When going from 25yds to 100yds the bullet hole is going to be quite a way off, don't worry about that. Fire one more shot and check to see where you are. If close, fire for a group and see what the rifle is doing. No need to hit the bulls eye working up a load. Find the load you want and then fine tune it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well, although it probably can happen you probably have the right base's and rings. Put them on yourself? make sure they are snug, matter of fact blue loc tite on the threads works wonders. Sighting it in once the mounts are on right is simple. Set the rifle up in a stand to hold it in the living room. Remove the bolt and sight through the barrel on a door knob, center it in the bore. Now look through the scope and see where the scope is aiming. Be careful not to move the rifle and move the crosswiresto the door knob! Check it a few times to be sure you haven't bumped the rifle off the door knob. Next go to the range and set up a target at 25yds and fire one shot at it. Notice the shot on the target, re-align the scope on the aiming point you used and move the crosswires to the bullet hole! Next move the target out to 100 yds and fire one round. Realign the site on the aiming point and again move the crosswires to the bullet hole. When going from 25yds to 100yds the bullet hole is going to be quite a way off, don't worry about that. Fire one more shot and check to see where you are. If close, fire for a group and see what the rifle is doing. No need to hit the bulls eye working up a load. Find the load you want and then fine tune it!
Thanks Don.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, although it probably can happen you probably have the right base's and rings. Put them on yourself? make sure they are snug, matter of fact blue loc tite on the threads works wonders. Sighting it in once the mounts are on right is simple. Set the rifle up in a stand to hold it in the living room. Remove the bolt and sight through the barrel on a door knob, center it in the bore. Now look through the scope and see where the scope is aiming. Be careful not to move the rifle and move the crosswiresto the door knob! Check it a few times to be sure you haven't bumped the rifle off the door knob. Next go to the range and set up a target at 25yds and fire one shot at it. Notice the shot on the target, re-align the scope on the aiming point you used and move the crosswires to the bullet hole! Next move the target out to 100 yds and fire one round. Realign the site on the aiming point and again move the crosswires to the bullet hole. When going from 25yds to 100yds the bullet hole is going to be quite a way off, don't worry about that. Fire one more shot and check to see where you are. If close, fire for a group and see what the rifle is doing. No need to hit the bulls eye working up a load. Find the load you want and then fine tune it!
Thanks Don.
Well, thinking about it now, I may keep the BAR and use my Burris signature rings with plastic offset inserts and dial it in that way. I have a shipping label ready to go back to Browning.
Its a brand new gun. What do you guys think?
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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Look anything can happen, but it's like Dr. House used to say " It's never the gun". It's always a junk scope out bad rings/bases. And especially since it's now two different rifles, it's your scope/bases/rings.

There weren't two separate rifles built with bad receivers, which magically got sold to you at the same time. 😉😉
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Look anything can happen, but it's like Dr. House used to say " It's never the gun". It's always a junk scope out bad rings/bases. And especially since it's now two different rifles, it's your scope/bases/rings.

There weren't two separate rifles built with bad receivers, which magically got sold to you at the same time. 😉😉
LOL, magically got sold to me... That was funny. I would be inclined to believe you except its two different guns, with 2 different bases and different rings. And they all measure out to end to end with my digital calipers.

My question is, ....is 22" lower than Point of aim typical with a new setup? Would you dial 88 clicks on your turret and accept that its just the way it is?

Before you beat me up too much, I can shoot a little. Both rifles gave me 1" or less 3 shot groups at 100 yards. With factory ammo, I am thrilled with that. The groups were just way off.
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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My question is, ....is 22" lower than Point of aim typical with a new setup? Would you dial 88 clicks on your turret and accept that its just the way it is?

Before you beat me up too much, I can shoot a little. Both rifles gave me 1" or less 3 shot groups at 100 yards. With factory ammo, I am thrilled with that. The groups were just way off.
No beating up, just need more clarification. This reads like you used the same scope, on both rifles. If that is the case, then the commonality of the malfunction is likely the scope. I've shot several leupolds apart, while mounted on a 20# 308 rifle. Are you POSITIVE that the scope is accurately and consistently adjusting across it's adjustment range? Are you POSITIVE that it doesn't change POI when you adjust through the magnification range?

Another thought is the base it's self. if a 0 moa base belongs on an action which isn't level across the bridge, and you have it mounted backwards, that will give you an incorrect cant to things.

Cheers
 
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My question is, ....is 22" lower than Point of aim typical with a new setup? Would you dial 88 clicks on your turret and accept that its just the way it is?
36“ and 22” is not typical. It would require serious machining errors to do that. I am betting it’s the scope.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
36“ and 22” is not typical. It would require serious machining errors to do that. I am betting it’s the scope.
Thanks guys, I thought the same thing at first. With the first rifle I used a new out of the box Leupold VX-Freedom 3-9x50 scope. I used a new Leupold dovetail base and rings It started out way low so I started adjusting it up. I actually called Leupold because the elevation turret got really mushy and tight to turn and I was still not quite hitting at Zero. Turns out that I was at the end of the elevation adjustment. Keep in mind, 1" groups at 100 yards.
So, I had a Burris scope, I bought new 1 peice rings / bases and I put that on with the same results. Then I called Savage.
For this BAR, I bought a new 1 peice picatinny mount ( zero MOA ), Used a different set of weaver style rings and the original leupold 3-9x50 scope after I had zeroed it ( mirror method ). Yes, you can see the crosshairs move when you run the clicker. Not quite as bad, but grouping 22" low, 18" right.
Then I removed the 3-9x50 and installed a brand new out of the box Leupold 4-12x50 and installed it with the same base and rings. It shot the same.
I was gonna try the 4-12x50 with my Burris signature rings with 0 offset and see what happens there. The original weaver style rings that I used allowed for windage adjustment, I just installed them by eye with even spaces of both sides for both rings. I wouldnt be too surprised if some of the 18" windage was due to those being off a bit. But the 22" low is a concern. The tech I spoke to at Browning said there is no offset required in rings or bases for this gun to shoot straight.

I can get the BAR to hit at zero for me, but I made a lot of adjustments on the turrets. A scopes gives the best light gathering and clarity when its close to zero optically.
I spent over $1500 for this whole setup, if there is a real problem here I would like it fixed.
I'm a hunter, not a bench rest shooter but I have never been a " good enough " kind of guy.
Based on what Doom said, I should send it back. Right?
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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Based on what Doom said, I should send it back. Right?
No, it's not lupus!

Get your calipers out and measure your bases and rings, then do the math. How much actual cant are they each contributing? Do an actual box test, with full mag movements at several points. Is the optic actually sound, or just "moves".

We've all been there, so I don't mean this in any way derogatorily. Those are cheap bottom end scopes and mounts. It's more likely they had a bad day, than two different factories accidentally machining reverse cant into a receiver, and hoped they both landed in your possession.;);)

Cheers
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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Darkker - either using your phone to answer or forgot to take your meds this morning. Spelling is terrible! :LOL:
 
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🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Yes, Bloody Autocorrect....
 
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