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Hello I am on my school's rifle team and i am having some trouble. you see, i can shoot a 70 out of 100 in the prone position, and a 60 in the kneeling, but my off-hand/standing position is HEAVILY lacking. I need some advice for a Remington .22 shooter. I was told it's all in the skeletal position, but i don't know what the proper position is. our guns are about 13 pounds, bolt action, and single shot.

all help is appreciated. PM me or reply. THANKS

C G
 

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G'day young CadetGambino,
I have been shooting 3 position Military rifle for about 25 years and have over that time achieved 9 possibles in offhand at 100m (i.e 15 shots 15 bulls firing within the 3 minute time limit.)
Lets get you started;
1. When holding such a heavy rifle take a stance whereby most of the weight is balanced on your forward arm. This may mean that the normal grip may have to be more to the rear than you are used to. Make sure this arm is vertical or near so as it is going to oppose the full weight of the rifle. Tuck the back of your elbow against the side of your chest for added support
2 When you first bring the rifle to your shoulder do so with your eyes closed. Open them and see where your rifle is pointed. If not pointing at your target move YOUR FEET and repeat until in the most comfortable position, your sights are aligned with the target. Using a couple of target patches, mark the position of your toe and heal for each foot so that you can repeat this position for each shot.
3 Sighting on your foresight concentrate and focus on it until it is crystal clear. The target should now appear as a blur in the background. You can practice this every day without firing a shot by holding out your thumb and focus on it while moving against the background.
4. 10 seconds of breath for each shot. on raising your rifle take in a deep breath as your movement settles the rifle, let half out and hold - now you have 8-10 secs of no chest movement to take the shot. (remember you have your front arm tucked into your chest so you dont want movement)
5 Foresight in focus, target blurred, sights aligned no
breathing; NOW is the time to gently squeeze the trigger. With practice you will not be concious of the trigger movement because you are so concentrating on those sights.
6 FOLLOW THROUGH - this is an out of body experience imaging you are now the bullet speeding to the target. Just before you pass through that ten ring reflect did the person hold the rifle, aim, breath and squeeze perfectly so I can go into the center.
Remember you don't just shoot a 50 shot match; you shoot 50 x 1 shot matches so make every one count.
YOU ARE AS GOOD AS ANY SHOOTER IN HISTORY ONLY TIME AND PRACTICE SEPARATE YOU.
Good luck for the future
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Hi, Gambino:
Eric's given you good advice. I'll add a few points. Like Eric, I'll assume for now that you're allowed to rest your forward arm against your body. Your sense of balance is better if you keep your head level. So bring the gun up to your cheek by lifting your shoulder and raising your trigger side elbow. This may raise the gun so far that you can't hold the forestock in the palm of your hand and keep your foreward arm against your chest without leaning back excessively. So put your thumb on the bottom of the trigger guard and your fingers on the stock ahead of it. Your thumb and fingers should be spread out (fingers together).

Here's a new technique. Stand with your feet about the width of your shoulders apart. Stand so your feet and hips are sideways to the target. Now twist your back until you're on target. That tightens up your back and steadys you. Works for me.

Eric emphasized time and breathing for good reason. To put time another way, "Take the first 10 you see". In other words, take the first reasonably good shot you see, don't try so long for the perfect shot that the shakes and wiggles set in. Just go for the black at first. Try for the 10 after your scores go up.

A .22 has much faster ignition than a flintlock, but the flinter taught me that taking the shot when the gun is steady but half a bead off is better than shooting as the bead swings across the x-ring. If a half a bead is too much when you're hunting, find a rest, get closer or pass on the shot.

If you've got to shoot shotgun style with your arm away from your body, get your left arm as far under the gun as is comfortable. Don't chicken wing, i.e. have your left arm flapping out horizonally.

Follow though is important. I've taught over a hundred kids to shoot shotgun, and most of the misses are due to stopping the swing before pulling the trigger. Two adults who were excellent rifle shots rarely hit a clay pigeon. Near as I can figure they froze up before they pulled the trigger. Rather embrassing when the 12 year olds are going 5 straight.

That's a pretty heavy rifle if you're new to the game. Time in the gym or on the track helps.

Stick with the same rifle if at all possible. Each one's going to have a little different trigger pull.

Hope this helps.
PRACTISE!

Bye
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #4
thanks guys i'll be sure to try this tommorow at practice.

:D :D :D
 

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Hi, CadetGambino
There's some good information at this site.
http://www.jarheadtop.com/

Go down the page until you find this paragraph and click on the "first four chapters" link.

For shooters who want to INCREASE THEIR SCORES INSTANTLY, read the first four chapters of my book "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and The Big Lie". You will learn the proper techniques in breathing, natural point of aim, sight alignment, sight picture, focus, trigger control and a lot more. If you know a new shooter, do them a favor and send them here.

My standing scores got me almost anything I won when I was shooting competively. I wasn't that good, but everybody else was worse.:D

Bye
Jack
 

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Jack -

You folks are doing a great job with our cadet. I had the same problem standing as a teen and my grandfather gave me the same advice re feet and basic hold but had me switch to a 22 pump and plink at stationary targets. The idea was to shoot a LOT and have FUN.

I really did not think this would help, because the gun was very light and the sight picture was totally different. He bought me as much ammo as I could shoot, and we started at 25 yards shooting cans! As long as my feet and basic position was good, he gave me no other instruction.

Pretty soon we were shooting at letters on the cans, and went to pop bottle caps driven into boards, painted black.

I was the water boy in Camp, and he put me up against all comers in the Camp dump during hunting season on the bet that the men would have to carry the water if I beat them hitting caps. This was great fun and there was a lot of ribbing when I finally beat my Dad.

More importantly, my scores standing at 100M with a Rem 40XB doubled. The most noticable effect of this "training" was that I was much more confident and had a bigger comfort zone regarding sight picture. I knew where the bullet would hit from the picture when the rifle fired.

I am by no means qualified to give advice on this subject, but thought I would ask you if such an approach might help our Cadet.
 

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Loader
It is difficult to summarise a whole shooting lesson in a short reply on this thread but you are right about 2 things. Comfort and Confidence.
In my instructional classes I start off the youngster's with a target hung reverse and get them to simply fire 10 for the center. There are some really tight groups shot when they can't see the black bull. Later when the next target is shot with the bull visable some groups are larger. The reason is that they are looking at the bull and not the sights. We repeat this proceedure untill the "visable bull" targets are consistantly smaller.
Had one youngster about 1 year ago couldn't hit the side of a barn with the target either way. During his ten shot string I moved down the line a little and pretended to give some instruction to one of the good students by shooting 3 shots smack in the inner ten on this kids target. You should have seen the look of delight on his face when he showed off the little 3 shots in the center. I said ,"well if you can do it 3 times you can do it 10".
That kid now regularly is now placed 4th or 5th each month shooting a 30.06 against the seniors. Confidence was all he needed.
Cadet G - I was very touched by your Cadet motto - there are a **** of a lot of adults out there who ought to read it and seek to change their ways !!
 

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Hi, Folks:
I got to the National Matches in 1971 and shot my way up to Expert, but there just wasn't the time and sometimes money to keep at it, so I'm badly out of date on the latest techniques.

That 13 lb. rifle is more than a bit much for a beginner, unless he's also a 1st string linebacker. To tell you the truth, I don't think I've ever shot a rifle that heavy. I think a lighter rifle is an excellent idea. A heavy rifle isn't impossible, though. Miriam Bedard won 2 Olympic gold metals skiing over hill and dale with a rifle that weighed 10% of her body weight (11.5 lb.) Mind you, a top Biathloner's physical condition is downright scary!

All the advise and coaching in the world is useless without practise. That brick of ammo from Grandpa was priceless, right, Loader? At first you have to think about pulling the trigger when the sights are on the target, but eventually you get a direct connection between your eye and trigger finger. Old Charlie Atkins claimed it took 2 years, but some skiers became competitive biathloners in 1 winter.

Any way you can practise with a lighter rifle, even an air rifle, Cadet? IPSC World Champion and famous big game hunter Ross Seyfried practises with an air rifle, so you can too. Likely you're too worn out by the time you get to your last target to learn anything. Usually we have the kids shoot 5 targets, 10 shots each. On average, they need the first target to get back in the groove, get their best score on the 2nd or 3rd, and slide a bit on the last two. We don't shoot more than 2 targets without taking an archery, clay pigeon or muzzleloader break.

Based on my own experience, 3 position matches are won standing. Let's say I've got 5 guys to beat. Everybody cleans prone. The other guys get high 90s kneeling, but I'm in the low 90s. I never had the flexibility to get into a good kneeling position. I'm in the mid 80s standing, but nobody else gets above the mid 70s, and I win.

Finding a comfortable position is important. I hated kneeling :mad: So is confidence. If a kid is having trouble with the shotgun, we give him/her a few more shots, until he/she breaks one. Then we quit. That kid will remember the hit until the next session, not the misses.

Eric and Loader and I each do things a little differently, but neither has said a word I disagree with. Experiment until you find what works for you.

Bye
Jack
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Good advice, gents. I shot .22 silhouettes for a few years. For some reason or another, I shot mostly kneeling. Don't even remember why that position was chosen.

Anyway, all that practice paid off, I can still shoot kneeling as good as sitting and nearly as good as prone. Not that I'm a great shot or anything, it's just comfort/confidence etc. and a LOT of practice shooting with a Marlin 39A, which I still have.

Practice, set your mind to it, and you'll do great things. A break once in a while doesn't hurt either, pick up a shotgun or something else occasionally and you'll be surprised how much your shooting can improve across the different disciplines.
 

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Jack -

Your are right about that brick, the shiny brass casings were GOLD to me. I was fortunate to have had a wonderful grandfather and father.

Gramp was Sheriff of McKean CO, PA and later county detective. Sort of a Gregory Peck type, tall and bony. Dad was a wildlife biologist, trained by Aldo Leopold at the University of Wisconsin, and a former game warden.He was a dead ringer for Lee Marvin.

Gramp once took custody of 2 men arrested for breaking into a gun store in Coudersport, PA, and they turned out to be two of the Brinks robbers! The FBI tried to set up a sting operation to get the others to bribe them out, but it did not work.

Dad paid for a portion of the costs of his education by catching live rattlesnakes for serum and research - really good money until they got a synthetic serum.

Most of the men in camp worked for the US Fish and Wildlife service, and 50% were WWII vets. One drove tanks for Patton and lost 3 of them and one entire crew. On the first day of my first deer hunt, 5 of them drove for me and I was on a stationary watch. I will never forget being alone in the snowy woods, in the process of loading my Model 94 when I realized that every one of these men trusted me with their lives...I was 12.

Responsibility has had a special meaning for me ever since...
 

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Hello Cadet, and welcome to a fascinating aspect of the sport! You're probably well-loaded with studies and don't see where you could find any extra time, but a book is something that is always ready when you are. (Though this one seems to make me ready when I see it -- opposite to what I just said.) It's a bit spendy, but has just been translated into English, and is VERY comprehensive. If you or someone who loves you, would get it (for you) , it could keep you company for many years. It can be as simple or complex as you like.... Title : "Ways of the Rifle", check it out at http://www.centershot.com. I've been working with our 4-H air rifle shooters for 12 yrs now and while I'm not any kind of expert I am very taken with this book. I think it's the best of the several I have. "May your position be as straight as your 'gig' line is!" Regards from NW MT
 
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