[nigonjac]

Hello everyone,

I am completely new to muzzleloaders, although I have always wanted one. I like the idea of you only get one shot so make it count, I am a bowhunter so I know how important your only shot is. I have some questions that i hope you guys will be able to answer for me, sorry if any are stupid, but im really just trying to learn.

I have the opportunity to buy a used, but in excellent condition, Thompson/Center Renegade .54 cal. The guy who is selling it to me will let me test shoot for a month it to see if i like it, if i like it i can purchase it from him for 100$. The only reason he is selling it is because he tells me he has too many other muzzleloaders to worry about. i know the guy very well so i know he wont sell me a piece of crap, or hopefully not overprice me. The rifle is in excellent condition, has a few dings in the stock, nothing bad at all, and the blueing and the barrel itself still looks flawless
1.) is this rifle worth a 100$? I will be using this rifle mainly for deer hunting and occasional shooting.
2.)what bullets should i use? i am thinking about some hollowpoints (348 grains i think?) from my local shop cuz that is all he has for .54 cal.
3.)what kind of accuracy can i expect? the guy tells me it is very accurate out to 100 yards and farther if i wish to shoot long distances, although 50-100 yards would be my max for deer.
4.)It says on the barrel, BLACK POWDER ONLY...does this mean i can still use the powder pellets that seem to be common?
5.)how many grains of powder should i use?

I am very excited about shooting it, but i wont be able to shoot it for another week so i figure i would learn as much as possible about this rifle.

Thank you to all that give me advice and help me, i really appreciate it

 

[OneEyedJack]

First of all, GRAB THAT RENEGADE FOR $100 !

In a .54, a patched round ball is all you need for whitetails. Start with that over something like 80 grains (volume measure) of real black powder or Pyrodex RS. You can always play around with other bullets after you become familiar with the gun and muzzleloading. Yes, a .54 ball is good for 100 yards and should be accurate out of a Renegade's 1:48" twist. As an alternative, it's your buddy's gun. He has probably worked up a load for it. Find out what bullet/powder combination he had success with. Pellets are not the best choice for a sidehammer muzzle loader. Go with loose powder and get yourself a powder measure.

You can shoot black powder or any of the "black powder substitutes" out of that gun except Blackhorn 209. The most commonly available substitutes are Pyrodex and Triple Seven.

 

[nigonjac]

Thank You!!!

I still wanna shoot this first just to see if i wanna get real in depth with muzzleloading...

i will be sure to get the powder measure and some powder...
My buddy has told me he never had a problem with accuracy out of this gun, no matter what kind of bullet he used, he has told me to never use more than 80-90 grains of powder...i will buy some different bullets/balls to test out.

he tells me you clean a muzzleloader more than you shoot? how often do i have to clean this and how do i exacltly, im only used to cleaning my .270 and .22 boltactions which never takes long.

Thank you once again!

 

[nigonjac]

also, would i be ok shooting the hollowpoint sabots, they wiegh 348 grains? Im just looking for a nice deer load thats inexpensive and accurate anywhere from 10 yards to 100...

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Black powder and all substitutes leave a corrosive residue in the bore and it must be cleaned each and every time after firing even one shot, else wise you will soon have a rust pitted bore. Cleaning is easy enough since one can easily remove the barrel from a Renegade. Remove the percussion nipple and place the breech end of the barrel into a bucket of warm soapy water. Using a cleaning patch on a proper size cleaning jag swab the bore to pull water up the bore and squirt it back out. Repeat until you're tired. Remove the barrel from the water and continue swabbing with dry patches until clean and dry, then follow up with a patch saturated with any good gun oil. Wipe off the lock, clean any debris from the hammer nose recess and lightly oil the lock inside and out. Reassemble and it's done. It only takes 10-15 minutes but it must be done every time the gun is fired.
You can download a complete instruction manual from Thompson/Center's website which will list recommended loads and pretty much all you need to know.

 

[nigonjac]

ok thank you, sorry if these questions sound stupid, i just dont know that much about muzzleloaders, and im glad you guys are helping me. So if i go to the range, i should bring a bucket of hot water and soap? also are there certain cleaning patches that work best? Do i have to buy a new cleaning rod,because the only one i have is for .22 cal and .270?

 

[cayugad]

I have the opportunity to buy a used, but in excellent condition, Thompson/Center Renegade .54 cal. The guy who is selling it to me will let me test shoot for a month it to see if i like it, if i like it i can purchase it from him for 100$. The only reason he is selling it is because he tells me he has too many other muzzleloaders to worry about. i know the guy very well so i know he wont sell me a piece of crap, or hopefully not overprice me. The rifle is in excellent condition, has a few dings in the stock, nothing bad at all, and the blueing and the barrel itself still looks flawless
1.) is this rifle worth a 100$? I will be using this rifle mainly for deer hunting and occasional shooting. You could not purchase the stock used for that price. I you did not want it you could sell that and double your money. I have three of the .54 caliber Renegades. I have paid as much as $200 for one, and $150 for another. One was purchased new as a kit, and I sold one a while back. That rifle is worth the $100.00. If you did not want it, you could get your money back any time you want. Just call me...
2.)what bullets should i use? i am thinking about some hollowpoints (348 grains i think?) from my local shop cuz that is all he has for .54 cal. The Renegade has a 1-48 twist. It is made to shoot roundball, conical bullets and even sabots. I shoot a 300 grain XTP hollow point in a MMP red sabot with good accuracy. But as said, the .54 caliber roundball is all the projectile you need. I once shot a deer at 80 yards with a roundball. That roundball passed through the deer killing it right there, and broke the back of a second one I never saw, standing 20 feet behind the first one. That is the kind of power you have with that rifle.
3.)what kind of accuracy can i expect? the guy tells me it is very accurate out to 100 yards and farther if i wish to shoot long distances, although 50-100 yards would be my max for deer. That would be a fair estimate of where I shoot also. There was a person that "claimed in a post" they shot a moose with a .54 caliber Renegade using 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. The ball of course killed the moose. The amazing part is the moose was 150 plus yards away. I think if you have good shooting skills, you will be surprised at how accurate these rifles really are. On most days I shoot a three in to four inch group with open sights at 100 yards. More then enough for deer hunting. Some days I have shot under a one inch group. So I have good days and bad, but I never blame the rifle for those days.
4.)It says on the barrel, BLACK POWDER ONLY...does this mean i can still use the powder pellets that seem to be common? No, you can not shoot pellets. Loose powder only. The reason for this is the #11 ignition the rifle uses has limited flame, and pellets do require a good hot blast of flame to ignite them. Loose powder works fine. Load 90-110 grains of loose Pyrodex RS or black powder and it will shoot fine. You can also load light and shoot 50 grains of plinking. Triple Seven works well in the rifle also, but I shoot mainly blakc powder by choice. Leave the pellets alone, and the rifle will work fine.
5.)how many grains of powder should i use? All three of my remaining Renegades like between 80-110 grains of powder. If you shoot conical bullets then I use 80 grains. Roundball I use 90 grains most of the time. Most T/C rifles are powder hogs. They like a good strong charge.

The Renegade is a great rifle. One of my favorites. If you want to mount a scope, you can also di that. Also Green Mountain Barrel used to sell drop in barrels with fast twists. I bought them and mounted a scope on them. With a scope it will shoot some very impressive groups with that scope. Also you can get different calibers. One of my favorite is my .58 caliber barrel that shoots even a bigger roundball with amazing accuracy.

 

[cayugad]

When you go to the range, bring some old cotton patches 3 inches and under. I like to bring some alcohol (isopropyl rubbing alcohol) for cleaning the barrel. You can also use spit (very common), windex, or some of the commercial cleaners. Just apply the liquid to the patch. With a ramrod (I recommend getting a range rod) and a cleaning jag, just work that patch down the barrel to remove fouling. Then a couple dry patches and your ready to shoot. If you are shooting roundball, I have shot up to 15 rounds with out having to swab the barrel. You will tell when it is time to swab because loading gets hard and accuracy starts to drop off.

So get some roundball, 100% pillow tick patches, a powder measure, a short starter, some roundball, lube, cleaning jags, a range rod, #11 caps (CCI magnum, Remington, or RWS are good ones), and a bottle of Windex and an old cotton T shirt or cotton socks, and scissors, and you are about set for a wonder day on the range. Don't worry, as you get into the sport, you will have tons of stuff you just swear you need and you will haul all of that to the range. Also get a nipple wrench and a new nipple. That is the first thing I replace on a used rifle. Whether it needed it or not.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

You can clean at the range or at home as you choose but you should clean the same day you shoot. You can "probably" get away with leaving it uncleaned over night but if the air is at all damp you may get some rust. The fouling residue is hygroscopic, will pull moisture from the air and the fouling then becomes acidic. You can fit a cleaning jag to the loading rod that comes with the rifle but loading and cleaning are both easier with a "range rod". You needn't pay twenty bucks for a range rod. I use a 7/16" dowel rod from True Value. I fit a .40 S&W cartridge case to the rod with epoxy, drill out the primer pocket and thread it 10x32 to accept standard muzzleloading accessories. You can cut it a couple of inches longer than the barrel and epoxy a ball or wooden drawer pull to the other end. Loading and cleaning are both much easier with the 7/16" wooden rod which is more rigid and easier to grasp than is the skinny and slippery little rod carried under the barrel, but some folks do get along fine with just the under barrel ramrod.
You can buy commercial cotton cleaning patches but I generally cut my own from cotton flannel material cut into squares about 2"x2". One yard of flannel cloth will make 400+ patches for about the price of 100 precut and packaged cleaning patches. You will go through a lot of cleaning patches.
I do recommend you download the T/C manual, it will answer many questions you haven't even thought to ask.

 

[Mauser8x57]

MY 54 renegade shoots just fine with 60 grains with round ball. I would recommend if you plan on hunting with it to change the nipple out with a musket nipple. Musket caps are about 700 degrees hotter than a standard #11 and are easier to put on the nipple. $100 is a steal for a good renegade.

 

[nigonjac]

Alright so I talked to the guy today after work, he said he found that the best load for him was 100 grains of black powder or triple 7 loose powder, and a round ball, he said it doesn't kick that much, and he could shoot 2 inch groups all day at 100 yards with it...

Also, since the muzzleloader season in wisconsin is later in the year when temperatures are freezing, will I have a problem with the powder igniteing? And if I'm hunting, how many days will I be able to keep the load in, without firing it so my barrel doesn't corrode?

Thank you guys so far!

 

[SFT]

Alright so I talked to the guy today after work, he said he found that the best load for him was 100 grains of black powder or triple 7 loose powder, and a round ball, he said it doesn't kick that much, and he could shoot 2 inch groups all day at 100 yards with it...

That is too much Triple 7 powder, as it contains more energy than the same amount by volume of traditional black powder. You need to find the best load for you, not start off with a near max load. You also need him to write down exactly what size ball and patch thickness he is using, because believe it or not 5/1000 of an inch can make a big difference in accuracy. Start with 60 grains traditional black powder, my .54 which has the same 1:48 twist likes 2F size. If Triple 7 is all you can get, that's fine too, I use it and like everything about it but the cost, which is over twice as expensive as GOEX down here. Start with 50 grains of T-7.
My .54 shoots .530 ball and .015 patch thickness best, and start with pre-lubed patches for now. Shoot three shots at 30 yards, swabing the barrel with an alcohol soaked cleaning patch between each shot, and write down where the ball hits your target. Increase your powder charge by 5 grains, shoot three, same thing, until you are getting close to your point of aim. After 9 shots, move your target to 50 yards, shoot three using the same powder charge. Move up in 5 grain increments until you are on target. You will typically find that you get two "best" load or powder charge amounts; one for target shooting, and one for hunting. The first may be from 55-85 grains of powder, after which accuracy drops off somewhat, then gets better towards the max load recommended for your particular rifle. Don't exceed the max powder charge, ever! This way you will have a nice, comfortable target load that won't eat up all your powder too soon, as well as having a hunting load that gives you the most downrange energy and accuracy for that all important "one shot only".
The target load for my .54 is 75 grains of 2f Goex, and a hunting load of 90 grains.

Also, since the muzzleloader season in wisconsin is later in the year when temperatures are freezing, will I have a problem with the powder igniteing?
No, temp has no effect on ignition.

And if I'm hunting, how many days will I be able to keep the load in, without firing it so my barrel doesn't corrode?
Indefinately, unburned powder isn't corrosive

Thank you guys so far!

You''l figure out how many shots you can take in between swabing the barrel, but some folks do it every time. Get some cotton patches, put half in a container with some alcohol, 91% isopropol works fine, and leave the rest dry. After a day of shooting remove the barrel and flush out with water mixed with a little dishsoap (use your ramrod or range rod and a clean dry patch to pump the water in and out of the nipple hole), let dry and then coat the bore lightly with a quality gun oil via a patch and rod. Give a light coating to the outside, put it back in the stock and store.

A word of advice- WD-40 is not a rust preventative, don't use it in place of a quality gun oil/rust preventative.

 

[nigonjac]

alright thank you everyone so far for the replies, as i talked to the guy tonight again on the phone, he said he meant 100 grains of black powder, not triple 7, also what is cheaper, the triple 7 or black powder? another question, what are lead connicles?

 

[nigonjac]

ok the hollowpoint bullets i was talking about are 348 grain powerbelts

 

[SFT]

alright thank you everyone so far for the replies, as i talked to the guy tonight again on the phone, he said he meant 100 grains of black powder, not triple 7, also what is cheaper, the triple 7 or black powder? another question, what are lead connicles?

Traditional black powder is most likely the cheapest but may not be as readily available as substitutes like T-7, Pyrodex, etc. For example, in my area of Texas Goex, a traditional black powder, sells for around $22 a pound, but isn't available at some of the larger stores like Cabelas, while T-7 is but retails at over $30 for the same amount by weight. Since it is "hotter" than Goex, you must reduce the powder charge by 15%, so you use less. The question is, does it justify the extra cost in the long run?

Another problem with using subs is that they are harder to ignite than traditional. some more than others, so you might need more than one or even a hotter cap to make them go off.

In the instance of Pyrodex, the burned residue is more corrosive than other subs as well as traditional types, so you must clean your rifle when you get home, no leaving it overnight to do the next day. It isn't going to eat through the barrel within minutes of firing though, so there is no rush but you simply can't leave your rifle in an uncleaned condition and not expect there to be some surface rust the next day when using it.

Conical bullets are really elongated balls and where the next step in the evolution in shooting technology. Twist rate has a lot to do with your rifles ability to stabilize on type of bullet or another. The 1/48 rate of twist (ROT) should enable your rifle to accurately shoot round ball, conicals and sabots. However, each rifle is an individual and you'll just have to see for yourself which type of projectile it likes. Personally I do not recommend sabots because of the fouling that they seem to cause. The plastic skirt melts into a tar like substance that makes loading and cleaning very difficult, at least in my rifles so I no longer even try to use them.

Here are some examples of conical bullets available;
http://muzzleloadingbullets.com/colorado_conicals_muzzleloader_bullets.html

http://www.gun-tests.com/pdfs/1-3-Bullets.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_bullets.htm

http://www.thearshop.com/index_files/Page399.htm

 

[nigonjac]

ok thank you SFT...Are the powerbelts a good load to use at 348 grains hollowpoint? these are the most readily available over by me.

 

[SFT]

ok thank you SFT...Are the powerbelts a good load to use at 348 grains hollowpoint? these are the most readily available over by me.

For the 1:48 ROT the best weight range for shooting conicals or sabots accurately is 350-400 grains, so yes, that would be a good one to start with.

 

[nigonjac]

ok thanks, and what powder charge would you suggest? also would this require more cleaning as well then?

 

[SFT]

It won't require more cleaning since the power-belts aren't true sabots, they just have a plastic skirt rather than a fully enclosed sabot but you probably want to swab the barrel between shots anyway, at least until you are more familiar with your rifle.

I would probably start with a powder charge around 60-65 grains setting your target at 50 yards. Realize that the heavier weight PB's will hit lower than round ball.

 

[nigonjac]

ok i just took a quick look down my barrel and i just realized its pitted, and rusted, the outside looks brand new, but the inside is a whole other story, am i able to clean this? or should i just buy a differnt barrel? or should i ask the guy to put half towards a replacement barrel? im thinking i might pass on this offer, and look for a different muzzleloader