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new to this sport...some questions

8K views 62 replies 9 participants last post by  Night Driver 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,

I am completely new to muzzleloaders, although I have always wanted one. I like the idea of you only get one shot so make it count, I am a bowhunter so I know how important your only shot is. I have some questions that i hope you guys will be able to answer for me, sorry if any are stupid, but im really just trying to learn.

I have the opportunity to buy a used, but in excellent condition, Thompson/Center Renegade .54 cal. The guy who is selling it to me will let me test shoot for a month it to see if i like it, if i like it i can purchase it from him for 100$. The only reason he is selling it is because he tells me he has too many other muzzleloaders to worry about. i know the guy very well so i know he wont sell me a piece of crap, or hopefully not overprice me. The rifle is in excellent condition, has a few dings in the stock, nothing bad at all, and the blueing and the barrel itself still looks flawless
1.) is this rifle worth a 100$? I will be using this rifle mainly for deer hunting and occasional shooting.
2.)what bullets should i use? i am thinking about some hollowpoints (348 grains i think?) from my local shop cuz that is all he has for .54 cal.
3.)what kind of accuracy can i expect? the guy tells me it is very accurate out to 100 yards and farther if i wish to shoot long distances, although 50-100 yards would be my max for deer.
4.)It says on the barrel, BLACK POWDER ONLY...does this mean i can still use the powder pellets that seem to be common?
5.)how many grains of powder should i use?

I am very excited about shooting it, but i wont be able to shoot it for another week so i figure i would learn as much as possible about this rifle.

Thank you to all that give me advice and help me, i really appreciate it:)
 
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#2 ·
First of all, GRAB THAT RENEGADE FOR $100 !

In a .54, a patched round ball is all you need for whitetails. Start with that over something like 80 grains (volume measure) of real black powder or Pyrodex RS. You can always play around with other bullets after you become familiar with the gun and muzzleloading. Yes, a .54 ball is good for 100 yards and should be accurate out of a Renegade's 1:48" twist. As an alternative, it's your buddy's gun. He has probably worked up a load for it. Find out what bullet/powder combination he had success with. Pellets are not the best choice for a sidehammer muzzle loader. Go with loose powder and get yourself a powder measure.

You can shoot black powder or any of the "black powder substitutes" out of that gun except Blackhorn 209. The most commonly available substitutes are Pyrodex and Triple Seven.
 
#3 ·
Thank You!!!

I still wanna shoot this first just to see if i wanna get real in depth with muzzleloading...

i will be sure to get the powder measure and some powder...
My buddy has told me he never had a problem with accuracy out of this gun, no matter what kind of bullet he used, he has told me to never use more than 80-90 grains of powder...i will buy some different bullets/balls to test out.

he tells me you clean a muzzleloader more than you shoot? how often do i have to clean this and how do i exacltly, im only used to cleaning my .270 and .22 boltactions which never takes long.

Thank you once again!
 
#5 ·
Black powder and all substitutes leave a corrosive residue in the bore and it must be cleaned each and every time after firing even one shot, else wise you will soon have a rust pitted bore. Cleaning is easy enough since one can easily remove the barrel from a Renegade. Remove the percussion nipple and place the breech end of the barrel into a bucket of warm soapy water. Using a cleaning patch on a proper size cleaning jag swab the bore to pull water up the bore and squirt it back out. Repeat until you're tired. Remove the barrel from the water and continue swabbing with dry patches until clean and dry, then follow up with a patch saturated with any good gun oil. Wipe off the lock, clean any debris from the hammer nose recess and lightly oil the lock inside and out. Reassemble and it's done. It only takes 10-15 minutes but it must be done every time the gun is fired.
You can download a complete instruction manual from Thompson/Center's website which will list recommended loads and pretty much all you need to know.
 
#6 ·
ok thank you, sorry if these questions sound stupid, i just dont know that much about muzzleloaders, and im glad you guys are helping me. So if i go to the range, i should bring a bucket of hot water and soap? also are there certain cleaning patches that work best? Do i have to buy a new cleaning rod,because the only one i have is for .22 cal and .270?
 
#7 ·
I have the opportunity to buy a used, but in excellent condition, Thompson/Center Renegade .54 cal. The guy who is selling it to me will let me test shoot for a month it to see if i like it, if i like it i can purchase it from him for 100$. The only reason he is selling it is because he tells me he has too many other muzzleloaders to worry about. i know the guy very well so i know he wont sell me a piece of crap, or hopefully not overprice me. The rifle is in excellent condition, has a few dings in the stock, nothing bad at all, and the blueing and the barrel itself still looks flawless
1.) is this rifle worth a 100$? I will be using this rifle mainly for deer hunting and occasional shooting. You could not purchase the stock used for that price. I you did not want it you could sell that and double your money. I have three of the .54 caliber Renegades. I have paid as much as $200 for one, and $150 for another. One was purchased new as a kit, and I sold one a while back. That rifle is worth the $100.00. If you did not want it, you could get your money back any time you want. Just call me...
2.)what bullets should i use? i am thinking about some hollowpoints (348 grains i think?) from my local shop cuz that is all he has for .54 cal. The Renegade has a 1-48 twist. It is made to shoot roundball, conical bullets and even sabots. I shoot a 300 grain XTP hollow point in a MMP red sabot with good accuracy. But as said, the .54 caliber roundball is all the projectile you need. I once shot a deer at 80 yards with a roundball. That roundball passed through the deer killing it right there, and broke the back of a second one I never saw, standing 20 feet behind the first one. That is the kind of power you have with that rifle.
3.)what kind of accuracy can i expect? the guy tells me it is very accurate out to 100 yards and farther if i wish to shoot long distances, although 50-100 yards would be my max for deer. That would be a fair estimate of where I shoot also. There was a person that "claimed in a post" they shot a moose with a .54 caliber Renegade using 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. The ball of course killed the moose. The amazing part is the moose was 150 plus yards away. I think if you have good shooting skills, you will be surprised at how accurate these rifles really are. On most days I shoot a three in to four inch group with open sights at 100 yards. More then enough for deer hunting. Some days I have shot under a one inch group. So I have good days and bad, but I never blame the rifle for those days.
4.)It says on the barrel, BLACK POWDER ONLY...does this mean i can still use the powder pellets that seem to be common? No, you can not shoot pellets. Loose powder only. The reason for this is the #11 ignition the rifle uses has limited flame, and pellets do require a good hot blast of flame to ignite them. Loose powder works fine. Load 90-110 grains of loose Pyrodex RS or black powder and it will shoot fine. You can also load light and shoot 50 grains of plinking. Triple Seven works well in the rifle also, but I shoot mainly blakc powder by choice. Leave the pellets alone, and the rifle will work fine.
5.)how many grains of powder should i use? All three of my remaining Renegades like between 80-110 grains of powder. If you shoot conical bullets then I use 80 grains. Roundball I use 90 grains most of the time. Most T/C rifles are powder hogs. They like a good strong charge.

The Renegade is a great rifle. One of my favorites. If you want to mount a scope, you can also di that. Also Green Mountain Barrel used to sell drop in barrels with fast twists. I bought them and mounted a scope on them. With a scope it will shoot some very impressive groups with that scope. Also you can get different calibers. One of my favorite is my .58 caliber barrel that shoots even a bigger roundball with amazing accuracy.
 
#8 ·
When you go to the range, bring some old cotton patches 3 inches and under. I like to bring some alcohol (isopropyl rubbing alcohol) for cleaning the barrel. You can also use spit (very common), windex, or some of the commercial cleaners. Just apply the liquid to the patch. With a ramrod (I recommend getting a range rod) and a cleaning jag, just work that patch down the barrel to remove fouling. Then a couple dry patches and your ready to shoot. If you are shooting roundball, I have shot up to 15 rounds with out having to swab the barrel. You will tell when it is time to swab because loading gets hard and accuracy starts to drop off.

So get some roundball, 100% pillow tick patches, a powder measure, a short starter, some roundball, lube, cleaning jags, a range rod, #11 caps (CCI magnum, Remington, or RWS are good ones), and a bottle of Windex and an old cotton T shirt or cotton socks, and scissors, and you are about set for a wonder day on the range. Don't worry, as you get into the sport, you will have tons of stuff you just swear you need and you will haul all of that to the range. Also get a nipple wrench and a new nipple. That is the first thing I replace on a used rifle. Whether it needed it or not.
 
#9 · (Edited)
You can clean at the range or at home as you choose but you should clean the same day you shoot. You can "probably" get away with leaving it uncleaned over night but if the air is at all damp you may get some rust. The fouling residue is hygroscopic, will pull moisture from the air and the fouling then becomes acidic. You can fit a cleaning jag to the loading rod that comes with the rifle but loading and cleaning are both easier with a "range rod". You needn't pay twenty bucks for a range rod. I use a 7/16" dowel rod from True Value. I fit a .40 S&W cartridge case to the rod with epoxy, drill out the primer pocket and thread it 10x32 to accept standard muzzleloading accessories. You can cut it a couple of inches longer than the barrel and epoxy a ball or wooden drawer pull to the other end. Loading and cleaning are both much easier with the 7/16" wooden rod which is more rigid and easier to grasp than is the skinny and slippery little rod carried under the barrel, but some folks do get along fine with just the under barrel ramrod.
You can buy commercial cotton cleaning patches but I generally cut my own from cotton flannel material cut into squares about 2"x2". One yard of flannel cloth will make 400+ patches for about the price of 100 precut and packaged cleaning patches. You will go through a lot of cleaning patches.
I do recommend you download the T/C manual, it will answer many questions you haven't even thought to ask.
 
#10 ·
MY 54 renegade shoots just fine with 60 grains with round ball. I would recommend if you plan on hunting with it to change the nipple out with a musket nipple. Musket caps are about 700 degrees hotter than a standard #11 and are easier to put on the nipple. $100 is a steal for a good renegade.
 
#11 ·
Alright so I talked to the guy today after work, he said he found that the best load for him was 100 grains of black powder or triple 7 loose powder, and a round ball, he said it doesn't kick that much, and he could shoot 2 inch groups all day at 100 yards with it...

Also, since the muzzleloader season in wisconsin is later in the year when temperatures are freezing, will I have a problem with the powder igniteing? And if I'm hunting, how many days will I be able to keep the load in, without firing it so my barrel doesn't corrode?

Thank you guys so far!
 
#12 ·
Alright so I talked to the guy today after work, he said he found that the best load for him was 100 grains of black powder or triple 7 loose powder, and a round ball, he said it doesn't kick that much, and he could shoot 2 inch groups all day at 100 yards with it...

That is too much Triple 7 powder, as it contains more energy than the same amount by volume of traditional black powder. You need to find the best load for you, not start off with a near max load. You also need him to write down exactly what size ball and patch thickness he is using, because believe it or not 5/1000 of an inch can make a big difference in accuracy. Start with 60 grains traditional black powder, my .54 which has the same 1:48 twist likes 2F size. If Triple 7 is all you can get, that's fine too, I use it and like everything about it but the cost, which is over twice as expensive as GOEX down here. Start with 50 grains of T-7.
My .54 shoots .530 ball and .015 patch thickness best, and start with pre-lubed patches for now. Shoot three shots at 30 yards, swabing the barrel with an alcohol soaked cleaning patch between each shot, and write down where the ball hits your target. Increase your powder charge by 5 grains, shoot three, same thing, until you are getting close to your point of aim. After 9 shots, move your target to 50 yards, shoot three using the same powder charge. Move up in 5 grain increments until you are on target. You will typically find that you get two "best" load or powder charge amounts; one for target shooting, and one for hunting. The first may be from 55-85 grains of powder, after which accuracy drops off somewhat, then gets better towards the max load recommended for your particular rifle. Don't exceed the max powder charge, ever! This way you will have a nice, comfortable target load that won't eat up all your powder too soon, as well as having a hunting load that gives you the most downrange energy and accuracy for that all important "one shot only".
The target load for my .54 is 75 grains of 2f Goex, and a hunting load of 90 grains.

Also, since the muzzleloader season in wisconsin is later in the year when temperatures are freezing, will I have a problem with the powder igniteing?
No, temp has no effect on ignition.

And if I'm hunting, how many days will I be able to keep the load in, without firing it so my barrel doesn't corrode?
Indefinately, unburned powder isn't corrosive

Thank you guys so far!
You''l figure out how many shots you can take in between swabing the barrel, but some folks do it every time. Get some cotton patches, put half in a container with some alcohol, 91% isopropol works fine, and leave the rest dry. After a day of shooting remove the barrel and flush out with water mixed with a little dishsoap (use your ramrod or range rod and a clean dry patch to pump the water in and out of the nipple hole), let dry and then coat the bore lightly with a quality gun oil via a patch and rod. Give a light coating to the outside, put it back in the stock and store.

A word of advice- WD-40 is not a rust preventative, don't use it in place of a quality gun oil/rust preventative.
 
#13 ·
alright thank you everyone so far for the replies, as i talked to the guy tonight again on the phone, he said he meant 100 grains of black powder, not triple 7, also what is cheaper, the triple 7 or black powder? another question, what are lead connicles?
 
#15 ·
Traditional black powder is most likely the cheapest but may not be as readily available as substitutes like T-7, Pyrodex, etc. For example, in my area of Texas Goex, a traditional black powder, sells for around $22 a pound, but isn't available at some of the larger stores like Cabelas, while T-7 is but retails at over $30 for the same amount by weight. Since it is "hotter" than Goex, you must reduce the powder charge by 15%, so you use less. The question is, does it justify the extra cost in the long run?

Another problem with using subs is that they are harder to ignite than traditional. some more than others, so you might need more than one or even a hotter cap to make them go off.

In the instance of Pyrodex, the burned residue is more corrosive than other subs as well as traditional types, so you must clean your rifle when you get home, no leaving it overnight to do the next day. It isn't going to eat through the barrel within minutes of firing though, so there is no rush but you simply can't leave your rifle in an uncleaned condition and not expect there to be some surface rust the next day when using it.

Conical bullets are really elongated balls and where the next step in the evolution in shooting technology. Twist rate has a lot to do with your rifles ability to stabilize on type of bullet or another. The 1/48 rate of twist (ROT) should enable your rifle to accurately shoot round ball, conicals and sabots. However, each rifle is an individual and you'll just have to see for yourself which type of projectile it likes. Personally I do not recommend sabots because of the fouling that they seem to cause. The plastic skirt melts into a tar like substance that makes loading and cleaning very difficult, at least in my rifles so I no longer even try to use them.

Here are some examples of conical bullets available;
http://muzzleloadingbullets.com/colorado_conicals_muzzleloader_bullets.html

http://www.gun-tests.com/pdfs/1-3-Bullets.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_bullets.htm

http://www.thearshop.com/index_files/Page399.htm
 
#19 ·
It won't require more cleaning since the power-belts aren't true sabots, they just have a plastic skirt rather than a fully enclosed sabot but you probably want to swab the barrel between shots anyway, at least until you are more familiar with your rifle.

I would probably start with a powder charge around 60-65 grains setting your target at 50 yards. Realize that the heavier weight PB's will hit lower than round ball.
 
#20 ·
:(ok i just took a quick look down my barrel and i just realized its pitted, and rusted, the outside looks brand new, but the inside is a whole other story, am i able to clean this? or should i just buy a differnt barrel? or should i ask the guy to put half towards a replacement barrel? im thinking i might pass on this offer, and look for a different muzzleloader:(
 
#22 ·
Offer him $75 for the stock (well worth that) and buy this barrel. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/4980/cat/34

Shoot patched balls and be happy.
That is a good idea, it should be a drop in fit, but you will have to buy some sights to put on this barrel. Very easy to do I might add, and you can choose the type of sights you prefer. Even with this added expense the whole package is less than you'd spend on a new rifle.
 
#23 ·
That's the reason you clean your rifle everytime you shoot it. Put a cleaning jag on your ram rod, wrap it with some OOOO steel wool, add a little oil (any gun oil or even 3 in 1) and scrub the day lights out of it, several times. This should remove the rust and a lot of the shallow pits. A lot of pitted barrels are still able to shoot with good accuracy. If you are not happy after that, check out the auction sites like Auction Arms, Gun Broker and even Ebay. You can usually find a .50, .54 or a .56 smooth bore barrel for Renegades. The .56 smooth bore gives you the option of shooting a round ball or shot like a shotgun. The important things about muzzle loaders are the condition of the bore and if the lock works properly. Another important thing to have is a good range rod. This is what I use: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_320&products_id=1302 . It's unbreakable, you can load with it, clean with it and mot important thing, you can pull a ball with it. In case you forget to put the powder first. Don't laugh! It happens to everyone sooner or later. $100 is a steal. I'd try to clean up that barrel first.
 
#24 ·
If you are a bow hunter you will think you died and went to heaven when
you start using that rifle. I use maxi balls in mine and have killed several
deer with it, no problem. The 54 caliber has good killing power. Check me
on this, but I believe the max. load is 110 grains of FFG black powder with
a maxi ball. That's a pretty hot load with quite a bit of recoil.

Zeke
 
#25 ·
I think you're right about that max load. I use 90 grains of FFg in my .54 T/C Hawkens with 400 grain T/C Maxi Balls that I cast and 380 grain Lee REAL bullets. I get excellent accuracy with both. After shooting the conicals, a round ball will feel like shooting a .22. Round ball or conical, you can't beat a .54!
 
#26 ·
ok well when the stock arrives, il make my decision if its worth keeping this rifle, if i get a new barrel, would anyone be interested in the one i have now, the pitted one? i guess you could smoothe boar it out for turkeys, but i dont know...IF the stock is in good condition, il purchase the rifle, and probably buy a new barrel, if not then il definately be looking for other muzzleloaders...If I end up looking for new muzzleloaders what would you guys suggest? i would think something from T/C or CVA would be best, but il have to wait and see, but thank you guys for everything so far, im really looking forward into getting into this sport.:)
 
#27 ·
If you decide to go with a new rifle, look at the Lyman Great Plains Pifle. They have a 1 in 60" twist barrels that are deadly accurate with round balls out to 100 yards, not so good with conicals. You could also look at the Grat Plains Hunter, which has a 1 in 32" twist barrel for conicals. If you want a 1 in 48" twist barrel, look at the Lyman Trade Rifle. Lyman rifles are of very good quality. All the Lymans are a lot cheaper that T/C. CVA no longer offer any traditional muzzle loaders. Check out Midsouth: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%4D%55%5A%5A%4C%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4D%55%5A%5A%4C%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47%20%52%49%46%4C%45%53&dept3=%35%34%20%43%41%4C&dept4=%4C%59%4D%41%4E%20%47%52%45%41%54%20%50%4C%41%49%4E%53 and http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...G RIFLES&dept3=54 CAL&dept4=LYMAN TRADE RIFLE . Compare the Lyman prices to T/C: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...LELOADING RIFLES&dept3=50 CAL&dept4=TC HAWKEN . Lyman offers their rifles in .50 and .54 calibe, while T/C only offers their in .50. The money you save with Lyman will buy everything else you need. I have two .54 Lyman GPRs (one flint and one percussion) and an old .54 T/C Hawkens. The GPRs are by far my favorite. With a .530 ball, who needs a conical?! Round balls are cheaper to buy, cheaper to shoot and lighter on recoil. They have been taking game for hundreds of years. Here are a few places you can mail order real black powder from: http://www.powderinc.com/ , http://www.grafs.com/ and http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/ . Good luck.
 
#28 ·
I will echo what Cowpoke said, Lyman is the best bang for your buck, but don't give up on what you've got just yet.

Having said that, I would recommend the Lyman Trade Rifle if you go totally new. It is solid, easy to clean, good shooter and will group both conicals and round ball well. However, with my TR, shooting sabots leaves a thick tar-like fouling behind, so I would suggest that you locate a source for RB or conicals, if in fact you go this route.

Your enthusiasm for getting into muzzle loading is great to see. There are so many levels to this sport you will be surprised, from just ML hunting to trekking and re-enactment there is something for everyone.
 
#29 ·
Its nice to see all you guys helping me, i really appreciate it. I guess what im looking for is a cheaper, but good quality, and easy to clean rifle. i would love to use this renegade as i hear so many great reviews on it, but i dont know if its worth buying a new barrel and i have to see what the rest of the gun looks like. Are Inline muzzleloaders easier to clean? what is the difference between them and a traditional cap lock? is it just that the hammer is behind the barrel and not on the side? I will definately look at the lyman's rifle's too. Thank you
 
#30 ·
Its nice to see all you guys helping me, i really appreciate it. I guess what im looking for is a cheaper, but good quality, and easy to clean rifle. i would love to use this renegade as i hear so many great reviews on it, but i dont know if its worth buying a new barrel and i have to see what the rest of the gun looks like. Are Inline muzzleloaders easier to clean? what is the difference between them and a traditional cap lock? is it just that the hammer is behind the barrel and not on the side? I will definately look at the lyman's rifle's too. Thank you
You clean both types the same way, a little soap and water in the barrel removes all the fouling, then follow with a lightly oiled cleaning patch. The inlines have no exposed hammer, it is internal.

If the stock is in good shape then yes, it is worth buying the Renegade.

Now, I may catch some flak here, but IMHO, inlines are not muzzle loaders, they are just an excuse to exploit ML hunting seasons. A few states have even banned everything but traditional side lock rifles from being used during ML only sesons. For me, plastic stocks and stainless steel barrels are modern arms and have no business masquerading as ML's.
Yes, they are a bit easier to clean and cheaper than traditional, and are good to excellent shooters. But some models of inlines were recalled several years ago because they were blowing up, I won't name the brand. Again, this is my opinion only.

JUst be patient and see how the stock is, and in the meantime try to remove the rust from the bore by the techniques discussed here, I think it's worth the effort. Remember, some rifles are excellent shooters even with pitted bore, every one of them is an individual.
 
#31 ·
Update

Alrighty guys, This morning i spent 2 hours scrubbing the **** out of the bore, using lightly oiled steel wool, i dont have a range rod, yet, so i just used a copper brush that comes with cleaning kits, and wrapped the wool around it until it was a tight fit with the bore...It worked, the rust is not existant, although i cant see all the way down the barrel, im just gonna assumed it worked, as my cleaning patches werent bringing up any more of that red brown color...however, there are still pits in the barrel, though not near as bad. Then after i cleaned the rust out, i went to work on removing any dirt, or crud in the barrel, i used what seemed like a hundred patches, but all of a sudden the patches started bringing up less of that brown/black color, and guess what? i can see some of the original blueing and color in the barrel when i use a flashlight to look down. My right arm is extremely tired now, but i feel so much better about the barrel. I then took a lightly oiled patch and ran it up and down the barrel as you guys suggested when done cleaning the barrel. Im still a little hesitant on buying this gun, i will have to see the stock, but not only am i getting just the gun, my buddy is sending me some caps, balls, wads, instructions, bullet starter, spare ramrod, and some "Bore Butter" im guessing thats what he used, which is why it was rusted. I told my friend about the barrel condition, and he said when he bought it, it was already used and the barrel was what it looked like with the pits. He said it still shoots though, i guess we will see when i shoot it a few times, then i will decide if i want to buy it or not, i may just buy it and get a barrel like you guys suggested, i will use just the patch and balls too. With that barrel that has the 1:60 twist, will it shoot a ball good at 100 yards? and can i just take the iron sights off the current barrel and put them on a new one? Thank you guys so far for everything!
 
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