New USRA/Win 1886 or Marlin 1895 CB?
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I must begin by stating that I am an unabashed Winchester fan, and have been for more than 50 years. The Marlins, while a solid, well built rifle, cannot compete with the feel of the Winchester. Even those made in Japan. I own and shoot several 1886/71's and, in my opinion, they are far superior to the Marlins. If you can get a "Brownchester" for $650 in "good" or better condition, I believe you will be happier than with a "new" Marlin for $500. Then learn to shoot it well. It will last a lifetime.
dclark
dclark
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178 Posts
I own several Marlins (.44mag, 45LC and 444Marlin) and one Winchester in 30-30. I favor the Marlins. They seem a little more solid and "feel" better to me. No complaints on the 30-30, I just like the Marlins a little better.
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716 Posts
ARKYPETE and DCLARK1,
Thanks for the advice. I am going to order the Grade 1 in the morning. I have heard nothing but good things about this weapon; fit, finish, and so pleasing to the eye. I would like to try some Beartooth Bullets but don't want to wait 3-6 months. Any suggestions on loading a hard cast gas checked 400 grain Flat Point bullet? The powders that I have on hand are:
IMR4895, IMR3031, IMR4064, IMR4320, AA2495, AA2200, AA1680, AA-XMP5744, 2400, H322, H335, H414, and W748.
Have an 8 pound jug of AA2200 and would like to use it. Am currently loading the 38-55 with a Beartooth 250 grain FNGC over 30 grains of AA2200, WW cases and CCI-250 magnum rifle primer. I spoke with a representative of Accurate Powder who was very helpfull and said that AA2200 is a fast rifle powder between AA1680 and AA2230 on the powder burning rate chart. Other powders within that burning rate are IMR3031, AA2015BR and RELOADER 11.
BEEMAN,
I buy American whenever possible but in this case it is not possible. I would like to own an original 1886 but Winchester discontinued it in 1935. One in very good condition cost Big Bucks.
Thanks to all for your comments.
Thanks for the advice. I am going to order the Grade 1 in the morning. I have heard nothing but good things about this weapon; fit, finish, and so pleasing to the eye. I would like to try some Beartooth Bullets but don't want to wait 3-6 months. Any suggestions on loading a hard cast gas checked 400 grain Flat Point bullet? The powders that I have on hand are:
IMR4895, IMR3031, IMR4064, IMR4320, AA2495, AA2200, AA1680, AA-XMP5744, 2400, H322, H335, H414, and W748.
Have an 8 pound jug of AA2200 and would like to use it. Am currently loading the 38-55 with a Beartooth 250 grain FNGC over 30 grains of AA2200, WW cases and CCI-250 magnum rifle primer. I spoke with a representative of Accurate Powder who was very helpfull and said that AA2200 is a fast rifle powder between AA1680 and AA2230 on the powder burning rate chart. Other powders within that burning rate are IMR3031, AA2015BR and RELOADER 11.
BEEMAN,
I buy American whenever possible but in this case it is not possible. I would like to own an original 1886 but Winchester discontinued it in 1935. One in very good condition cost Big Bucks.
Thanks to all for your comments.
As for cast bullets
I'm lucky in that I cast all of my own. For the 1886 I used a 350 grain cast Saeco bullet and for my Siamese mauser I use a 445 grain Lyman.
The difficulty, as I see it, will be finding commercial cast bullets in the diameter you will find usable. Most of the commercial casters size their products to .458 which to my thinking makes them useless for anything other then fishing sinkers.
I believe that 'Leadheads' cast bullets offers gas checked, in the proper diameter, .459 or .460
Jim
I'm lucky in that I cast all of my own. For the 1886 I used a 350 grain cast Saeco bullet and for my Siamese mauser I use a 445 grain Lyman.
The difficulty, as I see it, will be finding commercial cast bullets in the diameter you will find usable. Most of the commercial casters size their products to .458 which to my thinking makes them useless for anything other then fishing sinkers.
I believe that 'Leadheads' cast bullets offers gas checked, in the proper diameter, .459 or .460
Jim
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36,216 Posts
Nitro, you could start with some jacketed (gasp!) bullets while you are waiting for the 'good stuff' from Beartooth. The 400gr. Speer is accurate in my .458. A few of these down the tube to smooth it up should help with the cast loads, as long as you get the copper out first. That may also help you get a start on load development.
Sounds like a great rifle, enjoy, and good luck.
Sounds like a great rifle, enjoy, and good luck.
Powder for your 1886 45-70
Nitro, I bought a Brownchester 1886 carbine about a year ago and it is now my favorite rifle amongst many. The powder that I settled on for the 405 gr. cast bullet is H322. I loaded up to 59 grains without any pressure signs but accuracy started to drop off, plus recoil was pretty sharp. With Beartooth's 405 gr. LFNGC bullet at .460 diameter under 58grs. H322 powder and a CCI 250 primer I get can get 1.5-2.0 inch groups at 50 yards with Ashley ghost ring aperature sights. Recoil is still sharp with a velocity of 2019 fps. It took me one session at the range before I restocked my carbine with a decelerator recoil pad!!! Great gun, alot of fun to shoot, handles well and looks good. Good Luck
Nitro, I bought a Brownchester 1886 carbine about a year ago and it is now my favorite rifle amongst many. The powder that I settled on for the 405 gr. cast bullet is H322. I loaded up to 59 grains without any pressure signs but accuracy started to drop off, plus recoil was pretty sharp. With Beartooth's 405 gr. LFNGC bullet at .460 diameter under 58grs. H322 powder and a CCI 250 primer I get can get 1.5-2.0 inch groups at 50 yards with Ashley ghost ring aperature sights. Recoil is still sharp with a velocity of 2019 fps. It took me one session at the range before I restocked my carbine with a decelerator recoil pad!!! Great gun, alot of fun to shoot, handles well and looks good. Good Luck
Hello Nitro-
I think you won't be disappointed in your choice of the New '86. I have 2 Marlins (Cowboy and Std. 22" bbl - re-barreled w/Ballard cut bbl) as well as the '86. All of them are nice & I'd hate to get rid of any of them. The fit/finish for the '86 beats the Marlins though. One thing - the lower tang screw under the lever on mine was a bit sharp (the slot) and not contoured as well as it could be considering the lever will rest against it. Resulted in diggering up the lever where it makes contact on mine. You may want to consider pulling that screw and re-contouring it's head just a bit to avoid the same on yours.
Re: loads... I've also tried the AA2200 and have had good results. I contacted Accurate and they recommended 48.0 grs. as MAX. w cast 405gr.
My own loads and chrono results using 425gr. WLN-GC bullets at 12.5BHN (air cooled WW + 2% Sn) and the AA2200 are:
41 grs. / 1592 fps / ES 17
43 grs. / 1704 fps / ES 35
45 grs. / 1745 fps / ES 45
Another load that has performed very well with this powder is 38 grs. topped with a slug of green florist's foam as a filler. The slug of foam is just long enough that it compresses perhaps 1/16th inch when the bullet is fully seated. Velocity runs 1420fps and accuracy is superb. (ES 36 / SD 14)
I've also had excellent accuracy using AA 2495 (same bullet as above) - however - it throws a huge fireball out the muzzle at these barrel lengths. Not so with the longer barrels on my Sharps rifles.
AA 2015 loaded with the green foam filler for around 1450 fps (same bullet again) has also delivered excellent accuracy - no fireball. (Note: ES of 16fps/ SD 6)
Be careful of bullets with long noses. The origin of the rifling in these guns is close, starting almost at the end of the brass, and I have a number of bullets that won't chamber when seated to the crimp groove. Any of the profiles that work well for the Marlin seem to work well in the '86 as well.
Another observation - seek a load with low variation in velocity. I noted that the vertical dispersion of my groups directly correlated to velocity. Higher velocity printing lower. The difference was surprising. A variation of 200 fps resulted in a change of about 2.75" at 50 yds. I could look at the chronograph and call where the shot would be on the basis of velocity alone!
Good luck with your new toy!
Sky C.
Longmont, CO
I think you won't be disappointed in your choice of the New '86. I have 2 Marlins (Cowboy and Std. 22" bbl - re-barreled w/Ballard cut bbl) as well as the '86. All of them are nice & I'd hate to get rid of any of them. The fit/finish for the '86 beats the Marlins though. One thing - the lower tang screw under the lever on mine was a bit sharp (the slot) and not contoured as well as it could be considering the lever will rest against it. Resulted in diggering up the lever where it makes contact on mine. You may want to consider pulling that screw and re-contouring it's head just a bit to avoid the same on yours.
Re: loads... I've also tried the AA2200 and have had good results. I contacted Accurate and they recommended 48.0 grs. as MAX. w cast 405gr.
My own loads and chrono results using 425gr. WLN-GC bullets at 12.5BHN (air cooled WW + 2% Sn) and the AA2200 are:
41 grs. / 1592 fps / ES 17
43 grs. / 1704 fps / ES 35
45 grs. / 1745 fps / ES 45
Another load that has performed very well with this powder is 38 grs. topped with a slug of green florist's foam as a filler. The slug of foam is just long enough that it compresses perhaps 1/16th inch when the bullet is fully seated. Velocity runs 1420fps and accuracy is superb. (ES 36 / SD 14)
I've also had excellent accuracy using AA 2495 (same bullet as above) - however - it throws a huge fireball out the muzzle at these barrel lengths. Not so with the longer barrels on my Sharps rifles.
AA 2015 loaded with the green foam filler for around 1450 fps (same bullet again) has also delivered excellent accuracy - no fireball. (Note: ES of 16fps/ SD 6)
Be careful of bullets with long noses. The origin of the rifling in these guns is close, starting almost at the end of the brass, and I have a number of bullets that won't chamber when seated to the crimp groove. Any of the profiles that work well for the Marlin seem to work well in the '86 as well.
Another observation - seek a load with low variation in velocity. I noted that the vertical dispersion of my groups directly correlated to velocity. Higher velocity printing lower. The difference was surprising. A variation of 200 fps resulted in a change of about 2.75" at 50 yds. I could look at the chronograph and call where the shot would be on the basis of velocity alone!
Good luck with your new toy!
Sky C.
Longmont, CO
I have used three powders with a 405 gr Rem SP bullet available from Cabela's. They include H322, RL-7 and IMR 3031. All three gave excellent accuracy in a Ruger No. 1 and the Brownchester 1886. I choose the 3031 for my hunting load becuz of availability. 48 gr. give 1600fps. 53 gr. gives 1800+ with good accuracy, but sufficient recoil. I had to lengthen the stock with a 1/2" recoil pad to keep my thumb from engaging my nose. With that combination (53 gr.), a William FP peep sight and 40yds distance, I shot though a small bull elk. No problem.
The rifle is a great deal of fun and will meet hunting needs for nearly anything.
Cast bullets from LBT in Riverton Wyo begin to lead at 1800 fps, but shoot well with 47 gr. 3031.
good luck
The rifle is a great deal of fun and will meet hunting needs for nearly anything.
Cast bullets from LBT in Riverton Wyo begin to lead at 1800 fps, but shoot well with 47 gr. 3031.
good luck
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716 Posts
THANKS TO ALL
ARKYPETE, BEEMAN, DCLARK1, LEVERMAN, MIKEG, DOCROB, & SKYC:
Thanks to all for your very informative responses. I know of no other group of individuals more willing to help and trust each other than shooters and handloaders.
I was unable to order the newly manufactured Winchester 1886 this week but plan to do so very soon. Meanwhile I invite all who have not posted to this thread to please do so. Previous posters can further assist by passing on new 45-70 loads/techniques.
ARKYPETE, DCLARK1, DOCROB. SKYC, et all:
I noticed that ya'll load and shoot either or all of the 1886 variations; USRA/Winchester 1886, "Brownchester" 1886 and 71. Which one is your "GO-TO" gun that you can't (won't) live without. Since I haven't ordered mine yet a Brownchester is still an option.
THANKS AGAIN,
ARKYPETE, BEEMAN, DCLARK1, LEVERMAN, MIKEG, DOCROB, & SKYC:
Thanks to all for your very informative responses. I know of no other group of individuals more willing to help and trust each other than shooters and handloaders.
I was unable to order the newly manufactured Winchester 1886 this week but plan to do so very soon. Meanwhile I invite all who have not posted to this thread to please do so. Previous posters can further assist by passing on new 45-70 loads/techniques.
ARKYPETE, DCLARK1, DOCROB. SKYC, et all:
I noticed that ya'll load and shoot either or all of the 1886 variations; USRA/Winchester 1886, "Brownchester" 1886 and 71. Which one is your "GO-TO" gun that you can't (won't) live without. Since I haven't ordered mine yet a Brownchester is still an option.
THANKS AGAIN,
I am so confused. Please tell me what guns you are talking about and what caliber. I can't find an 1886 new gun from any manufacturer on the web. My searches come up empty. Model 71?
Please clear things up for me. It is driving me crazy not to know.
Please clear things up for me. It is driving me crazy not to know.
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716 Posts
Hi Chief,
You probably know the history of the Winchester 1886. However, for the benifit of our fellow subscribers that do not, I shall briefly delineate same as follows:
WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY
Made in America 1866-1935
MODEL 1886 LEVER ACTION RIFLE, CARBINE AND MUSKET - .33 WCF, 38-56 WCF, 38-70 WCF, 40-65 WCF, 40-70 WCF, 40-82 WCF, 45-70 Govt., 45-90 Express, 50-110 Express, or 50-100-450 calibers available. This was John Browning's first high power lever action design distinguishable by vertical locking bars. 45-70 Gov't. most popular caliber. 26" round or octagonal barrel, tube magazine, steel fore end cap, straight grip stock. Approx. 159,990 mfg. between 1886 and 1935.
MODEL 1886 LIGHTWEIGHT RIFLE - 45-70 Govt. and .33 WCF calibers only.
Sorry but I have to drive to Gulfport, MS (50 miles) and check on aging parents. When I return we will learn about U.S Repeating Arms Co, Browning Arms Co. and the models 1886 and 71 made in Miroku, Japan.
IF SOMEONE ELSE WOULD LIKE TO CARRY THE BALL FROM HERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DO SO.
THANKS,
You probably know the history of the Winchester 1886. However, for the benifit of our fellow subscribers that do not, I shall briefly delineate same as follows:
WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY
Made in America 1866-1935
MODEL 1886 LEVER ACTION RIFLE, CARBINE AND MUSKET - .33 WCF, 38-56 WCF, 38-70 WCF, 40-65 WCF, 40-70 WCF, 40-82 WCF, 45-70 Govt., 45-90 Express, 50-110 Express, or 50-100-450 calibers available. This was John Browning's first high power lever action design distinguishable by vertical locking bars. 45-70 Gov't. most popular caliber. 26" round or octagonal barrel, tube magazine, steel fore end cap, straight grip stock. Approx. 159,990 mfg. between 1886 and 1935.
MODEL 1886 LIGHTWEIGHT RIFLE - 45-70 Govt. and .33 WCF calibers only.
Sorry but I have to drive to Gulfport, MS (50 miles) and check on aging parents. When I return we will learn about U.S Repeating Arms Co, Browning Arms Co. and the models 1886 and 71 made in Miroku, Japan.
IF SOMEONE ELSE WOULD LIKE TO CARRY THE BALL FROM HERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DO SO.
THANKS,
You absolutely cannot beat the 1886 Winchester. The action is buttery smooth and only improves with age and use. I own a number of'86s, in most calibers, manufactured between 1890 and 1935. These guns are shot and hunted with as often as possible. A couple of years ago I picked up a new 1886 EL. It has proven to be every bit as fine a gun as the originals. They are beautifully made and finished. This gun can handle any 45-70 ammunition made and then some. There is in an ad in this week's Gun List showing that CDNN Investments, out of Abilene, Tx. is now offering these guns for $599.99. This is a great deal! Check it out. www.cdnninvestments.com
1-800-588-9500
OK, I'll try to carry on.
Winchester was then purchased by Olin. 1936 saw the introduction of the "improved" Model 1886 - the Model 71. It was brought out in one caliber; the .348 Winchester. The changes included an improved trigger "disconnector" mechanism, and coil spring throughout. The stock and forend were also redesigned. That rifle was produced through 1958 with a couple of minor changes. It was discontinued at less than 45,000 being built.
Enter the 1980's. Browning decides to re-issue the Model 71 in 1986, I believe. They issue 18,000, including all versions. They then begin to issue several versions of the 1886's for various organizations, including the US Forest Service. None of these rifle have additional EXPOSED safeties. They do incorporate the trigger disconnector safety, slightly modified.
Winchester and Browning are then purchased by a single company, where they remain today. (I left out US Repeating Arms because it did not effect these rifles.) Winchester began reissuing the 1886's in other variations with limited numbers released. Since the re-introduction of the 71 by Browning, all have been produced by Miroku in Japan. They are excellent in their workmanship, using modern steels. They are not hand fitted, but smooth out in a few hundred rounds. The Winchesters all have incorporated three new safeties: Rebounding hammer (automatic half cock), tang safety and a trigger pull that would challenge Hulk Hogan. The rebounding hammer can be removed easily, and the trigger can be smoothed with some work. The tang safety, however, is there, even if covered.
But, they all shoot! I have three (two 71's and one 1886 ELR) and they all shoot. The barrels are clean and smooth to the eye. The actions smooth out easily, although the Winchester trigger was horrible. A stone and elbow grease solved that (together with a little knowledge?) cured that, mostly.
Are they as good as an original? Depends upon the original. I have one original and seen lots of others. At 20% of the price they are as good for shooting. NOT for collecting. Just how demanding are YOU?
Hope this helps.
dclark
Winchester was then purchased by Olin. 1936 saw the introduction of the "improved" Model 1886 - the Model 71. It was brought out in one caliber; the .348 Winchester. The changes included an improved trigger "disconnector" mechanism, and coil spring throughout. The stock and forend were also redesigned. That rifle was produced through 1958 with a couple of minor changes. It was discontinued at less than 45,000 being built.
Enter the 1980's. Browning decides to re-issue the Model 71 in 1986, I believe. They issue 18,000, including all versions. They then begin to issue several versions of the 1886's for various organizations, including the US Forest Service. None of these rifle have additional EXPOSED safeties. They do incorporate the trigger disconnector safety, slightly modified.
Winchester and Browning are then purchased by a single company, where they remain today. (I left out US Repeating Arms because it did not effect these rifles.) Winchester began reissuing the 1886's in other variations with limited numbers released. Since the re-introduction of the 71 by Browning, all have been produced by Miroku in Japan. They are excellent in their workmanship, using modern steels. They are not hand fitted, but smooth out in a few hundred rounds. The Winchesters all have incorporated three new safeties: Rebounding hammer (automatic half cock), tang safety and a trigger pull that would challenge Hulk Hogan. The rebounding hammer can be removed easily, and the trigger can be smoothed with some work. The tang safety, however, is there, even if covered.
But, they all shoot! I have three (two 71's and one 1886 ELR) and they all shoot. The barrels are clean and smooth to the eye. The actions smooth out easily, although the Winchester trigger was horrible. A stone and elbow grease solved that (together with a little knowledge?) cured that, mostly.
Are they as good as an original? Depends upon the original. I have one original and seen lots of others. At 20% of the price they are as good for shooting. NOT for collecting. Just how demanding are YOU?
Hope this helps.
dclark
Joined
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716 Posts
ORDERED NEW 1886 TODAY
Mike: Thanks for the tip. Today I ordered an 1886 Grade 1 from cdnninvestments.com. I was on the fence whether to get the new 1886 Winchester or the Browning copy of the 1886 commonly refered to as the Brownchester. When cdnn dropped the price to $599, fence sittin' was over. It should be here on Friday. Saturday I will be at the range.
DCLARK1: Thanks for carrying the ball and completing the brief history of the model 1886 Winchester. Thanks to you and others who contributed to this thread for the information that allowed me to make the informed decision to get the Winchester 1886 and not the Marlin 1895. I do love Marlin lever action rifles, own four, shoot all four and handload for three. The one that I don't handload is a 39 Century Limited 22 long rifle. The other three are a 336LT in 30-30, a 336CB in 38-55 and an 1894S in 44 mag/spl.
When I return from shooting at the range I will report on how the new 1886 performed.
Mike: Thanks for the tip. Today I ordered an 1886 Grade 1 from cdnninvestments.com. I was on the fence whether to get the new 1886 Winchester or the Browning copy of the 1886 commonly refered to as the Brownchester. When cdnn dropped the price to $599, fence sittin' was over. It should be here on Friday. Saturday I will be at the range.
DCLARK1: Thanks for carrying the ball and completing the brief history of the model 1886 Winchester. Thanks to you and others who contributed to this thread for the information that allowed me to make the informed decision to get the Winchester 1886 and not the Marlin 1895. I do love Marlin lever action rifles, own four, shoot all four and handload for three. The one that I don't handload is a 39 Century Limited 22 long rifle. The other three are a 336LT in 30-30, a 336CB in 38-55 and an 1894S in 44 mag/spl.
When I return from shooting at the range I will report on how the new 1886 performed.
Nitor-
dclark1 & I are on the same page. The Miroku built repro's of these fine Winchester designs are excellent.
My M-71 (rifle) is without a doubt my hands down favorite. It has better balance in my hands and the contour of the forend is better than that of the '86. That said - I am a huge fan of the .45-70 and the '86 is still very nice. Both shoot tighter than I can hold with the receiver sights they wear. One advantage the .45-70 has though in my experience so far is that it just isn't fussy about loads. It seems to shoot any reasonable combination well. The .348 has not been bad to find loads for that it likes - but it is more particular. The
.45-70 though is just plain easy - borne out by my experience with multiple guns.
I think you will like the '86 - it is a fine gun. I'll caution you against looking too much at the M-71 though... one could easily end up following you home!
Best regards-
Sky C.
dclark1 & I are on the same page. The Miroku built repro's of these fine Winchester designs are excellent.
My M-71 (rifle) is without a doubt my hands down favorite. It has better balance in my hands and the contour of the forend is better than that of the '86. That said - I am a huge fan of the .45-70 and the '86 is still very nice. Both shoot tighter than I can hold with the receiver sights they wear. One advantage the .45-70 has though in my experience so far is that it just isn't fussy about loads. It seems to shoot any reasonable combination well. The .348 has not been bad to find loads for that it likes - but it is more particular. The
.45-70 though is just plain easy - borne out by my experience with multiple guns.
I think you will like the '86 - it is a fine gun. I'll caution you against looking too much at the M-71 though... one could easily end up following you home!
Best regards-
Sky C.
Regards of 1895 mar vs 1886 win
To me they're both winners and would gladly to give up my " ENTIRE" government and all the women and enemies that they slept with """***IF***""" I had to choose between the TWO I would keep both. ,the marlin CB I love because of one: the loading gate ,it shows rounds in the mag ,and two: the marlin will never dry feed due to marlins always cycle on the back stoke,while wins always on the forward stroke which depending on how fast You cycle the 86 its possible to dry feed a round into the chamber, and three: marlins are generally cheaper .1886's have a heaver receiver And no plasteeek, Marlins follower plug pasteek!!! and like the marlin cycle smooth but the win esp the look of the"" carbine"" and the Marlin"" 1895 CB"" together just look like a God send .Sorry I just refuse to choose which one to lose I love them both, 45-70 a cartridge not to argue with ha,ha. If You can get both of these rifles I envy You and keep for life, remember money iz garbage guns are gold . I still got one the CB and regret departing my 1886 and in the process of getting another in Honor of the Heroic Cowboy Way!!!!! P.S I don't reload due to not being an expensive, hard to find round to get, but never the less not a bad idea I have friends that do it so I try to give them as much brass as I can .
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