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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I'm talkin' to an old friend yesterday out at the range who just happens to be a long time gunshop owner. I mentioned that one of the things which I love about BP is that the government seems to think that we are harmless, i.e. no National Identity Number required.

His response to me was that it was because BP guns are considered "Non-Guns". HUH??? I've never heard that one before!! From what he told me as a gunshop owner (30+ years), a "Non-Gun" may be possessed by a person who has lost their right to own a "Real" gun, i.e. felony conviction, or restraining order. Now...this is of no concern to me but it does pose an interesting question, at least in my slightly unorthodox mind.

For years I have resisted the temptation to obtain a concealed weapons permit do to the fact that I abhor the government knowing anything more about me than they already do, which is too much already.

Does this mean that I could carry a "Non-Gun" concealed in violation of no federal law??

Does this mean that I could carry a "Non-Gun" un-concealed in the state of Commiefornia??

Please understand, I have no desire to carry BP concealed but I'm interested in the concept.

I will understand if nobody wants to talk about this for fear of calling some politicians attention to it, but if yer up to it, let 'er rip.

Joe
 

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So I'm talkin' to an old friend yesterday out at the range who just happens to be a long time gunshop owner. I mentioned that one of the things which I love about BP is that the government seems to think that we are harmless, i.e. no National Identity Number required.

His response to me was that it was because BP guns are considered "Non-Guns". HUH??? I've never heard that one before!! From what he told me as a gunshop owner (30+ years), a "Non-Gun" may be possessed by a person who has lost their right to own a "Real" gun, i.e. felony conviction, or restraining order. Now...this is of no concern to me but it does pose an interesting question, at least in my slightly unorthodox mind.

For years I have resisted the temptation to obtain a concealed weapons permit do to the fact that I abhor the government knowing anything more about me than they already do, which is too much already.

Does this mean that I could carry a "Non-Gun" concealed in violation of no federal law??

Does this mean that I could carry a "Non-Gun" un-concealed in the state of Commiefornia??

Please understand, I have no desire to carry BP concealed but I'm interested in the concept.

I will understand if nobody wants to talk about this for fear of calling some politicians attention to it, but if yer up to it, let 'er rip.

Joe

It is true that black powder weapons fall under a different classification then modern weapons. Some states classify them as collector weapons and some as Black Powder weapons. I fear you will see that change in some states because of the advancements made with black powder rifles and powders.

As for violation of federal laws, I am not sure about the carry part. Now shipping them through the mail falls into a different classification in SOME states. Many states do not demand a FFL to the person receiving the black powder weapon. The carry part you have to worry about are the State and local laws. Wisconsin is a state that does not allow a carry permit. Whether I agree with that or not still forbids me from having a CCW.
 

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Federal law does not cover concealed carry. Concealed carry is controlled by the stsates, counties and cities. I have 31 years of law enforcement, 27 years for the State of California. To answer your question about carrying a black powder handgun in California, it's no. You can carry on your own property or while hunting or fishing (check the California Fish and Game regulations). Just like it is illegal to carry a pocket knife with a blade longer than three inches. Every town and city I know of have an ordinance against carrying an exposed weapon, except for uniformed law enforcement. It is illegal for convicted felons to possess black powder weapons in California. Sure, anyone can buy one through the mail, even a seven year old with a money order. There is no registration or back ground check required. If an ex-felon is caught with one, it's a return trip to the Big House! If you treat your black powder handgun like any modern handgun, you'll save yourself a lot of problems with the law. If you need a CCW, go ahead and go through the process and be legal. I'm just glad I left that state when I retired.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Non-Gun is still a "Weapon"

This is one of the reasons I enjoy forums like this, information.

I mis-spoke when refering to federal law, please excuse the error.

Let me say that I have no desire to carry concealed, BP, BB gun or bow & arrow. My reasons stem first from providing more info about my possessions to the government and secondly the fact that using that weapon comes with some pretty hefty consequences.

I absolutely don't trust the government to give me a "fair & impartial" trial should I use that gun. I would rather trust the wisdom that has come with old age in helping me to stay out of places and situations where I might have to kill someone to preserve my own life.

I have known two people who have had to use deadly force, both of whom could have prevented taking someone else's life if they had not put "themselves" in that position in the first place. Both were aquitted eventually at great personal cost both financially and emotionally.

As far as BP guns and law enforcement, I treat them both with equal respect, doing otherwise has proven time and again to be hazardous.

Joe
 

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States vary on how they treat muzzle-loading weapons. Some require FFL transfers and the like; others, like my state of Indiana, consider them to be "non-guns". I suspect I could carry one here without a CC license, but it would probably cause at least some consternation if caught. I did give it thought at one point in time, but now I have a lifetime permit so it's not an issue. Something you would probably want to run by your law enforcement agency just to be on the safe side.

On the humorous side, imagine a shoot-out among gang members with muzzle-loading handguns; assuming they could load and fire them without blowing themselves up, the smoke would definitely mark the offending individual(s) (and probably keep them from hitting anything)!
 

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Any firearm made before 1896 is classified as a non gun, so the 1888 Mauser Comission rifle is a non gun. I used to have one with the water jacket on it, should have kept that one.

The last I checked most of the non guns can kill a person just as dead as a real gun. Funny how that works.

As far as carrying a firearm that seems to be all over the country side these days with the different laws. I do have a CCW license, but I openly carry many times I have to run to the mill or get diesel for the tractor. It freaked the lady at the gas station out, I drive a Honda Element, don't have any sticker in the windows or on the van, I show up in carharts, tactical holster and a SIG, but last fall I brought her some venison and now she doesn't mine. I keep telling her if shw would eat ground hog or coyote, she would get some meat year round.

BP pistols are really nice, I have one of the 1858 Army clones, it shoots extremely well and the last ground hog I got I blew a hole thru it with a RB and Pyrodex pellets. It is almost as good as my L Frame.

The U.S. isn't consistant with it's gun laws, in Ohio we have the Castle Doctrine, we can protect and defend our homes with firearms, but see how far that goes in some of the metro areas. I saw my sherif on TV after the last lay offs telling us we could use force because the LEOs were at least 30 minutes away. In the city, you could be arrested for doing exactly the same thing. So I will stay out here in BFE, where we basically run our own lives, because there is no one around to tell us different.

Jerry
 

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One day I was talking with a game warden and told him I liked to carry my 1860 Colt, while deer hunting in the Sierra Nevada mountains. I would load the first three chambers with shot for snakes and the next two with ball. He said it was a good thing I didn't get caught, because it is illegal to be in possession of a black powder handgun while hunting big game. It is legal to hunt bear with a .25 Auto with a pellet-point bullet, if you're crazy enough to try. Don't get law enforcement wrong. They don't make the law. That falls on those crazy politians.
 

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States and cities.
In NYC, where I have a home and where I possess a pistol permit, it is legal to own a BP pistol. Legal as long as you do not have the means to load it. As soon as you are in possession of the "means to load", like having a can of BP, ball, and caps in the same house, you are in violation.
Pete
 

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That sounds logical. I'll bet the criminals do not fear too much on home invasions. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
 

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In Colorado, they are non-guns until you prime the frizzen or put a cap on it, even if it is "loaded". Unfortunately, the law is the same with any firearm. You can only carry one concealed with a permit, or open carry without a permit. You also have to have a FFL to have ANY handgun shipped to you, but not antique or BP rifles.
A friend of mine bought a BP revolver from a catalog without knowing that it couldn't be shipped to him. When the company refused to send it, he talked them into shipping to his brother in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and then he drove there to get it.
BP guns have probably killed more people over time than any other kind of gun, and deserve the same respect. Some of us are just lucky that the Gov. hasn't caught on yet!
 

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New Jersey treats them like regular firearms, same as the do BB guns & Paint ball guns! You have to go to 'rifle' education to use a muzzleloader to deer hunt!
 

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In Colorado, they are non-guns until you prime the frizzen or put a cap on it, even if it is "loaded". Unfortunately, the law is the same with any firearm. You can only carry one concealed with a permit, or open carry without a permit. You also have to have a FFL to have ANY handgun shipped to you, but not antique or BP rifles.
A friend of mine bought a BP revolver from a catalog without knowing that it couldn't be shipped to him. When the company refused to send it, he talked them into shipping to his brother in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and then he drove there to get it.
BP guns have probably killed more people over time than any other kind of gun, and deserve the same respect. Some of us are just lucky that the Gov. hasn't caught on yet!
Another reason I love living here! :D
 

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North.................way north in Canuckistan, a flintlock pistol requires a restricted licence to purchase and a transport permit to take to a registered range to fire..........................evidently our Canadian government is worried about the criminal element in our society arming themselves with flinbtlock pistols and robbing banks. Flintlock rifles are exempt............luckily.

Mc
 

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The last I checked most of the non guns can kill a person just as dead as a real gun. Funny how that works

Non-guns don't kill they just make the shootee non-alive. as opposed to killing the shootee
like a modern gun will.:D
That is government think, I think.
 

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The last I checked most of the non guns can kill a person just as dead as a real gun. Funny how that works

Non-guns don't kill they just make the shootee non-alive. as opposed to killing the shootee
like a modern gun will.:D
That is government think, I think.
Very funny!
 

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Considering all the devastation wrought by the machine gun and smokeless powder cartridge guns over the last century+ (Spanish-American war, WWI, Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kmer Rouge (sp?), various blood thirsty dictators, etc.), I doubt that black powder guns have killed nearly as many as smokeless powder weapons, but they are deadly nevertheless. On the other hand, I would imagine that few, if any, have been killed in anger by a black powder weapon in a good many years. Few criminal types could probably figure out how to load one, much less use one effectively. Which is probably why most states don't consider them to be much of a threat.
 

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The last I checked most of the non guns can kill a person just as dead as a real gun. Funny how that works

Non-guns don't kill they just make the shootee non-alive. as opposed to killing the shootee
like a modern gun will.:D
That is government think, I think.
Non gun has nothing to do with how lethal they are. Conceal carry laws can apply to things like a knife after all. The non gun classification has to do with what authority the feds gave ATF, and nothing to do with how deadly a weapon is. Pre 1898 guns are non weapons. That includes an early colt SAA, and that most defiantly would be a concealed weapon in any state despite the lack of need to have an FFL involved with shipping it.
I think that the answer to what the law thinks of a muzzle loader as far as a concealed weapon is going to take state specific research. I do believe that if it's loaded and has a cap or a prime in the frizzen it's going to be treated as a concealed weapon though most places.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Don't be fooled by outdated weapons.

Considering all the devastation wrought by the machine gun and smokeless powder cartridge guns over the last century+ (Spanish-American war, WWI, Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kmer Rouge (sp?), various blood thirsty dictators, etc.), I doubt that black powder guns have killed nearly as many as smokeless powder weapons, but they are deadly nevertheless. On the other hand, I would imagine that few, if any, have been killed in anger by a black powder weapon in a good many years. Few criminal types could probably figure out how to load one, much less use one effectively. Which is probably why most states don't consider them to be much of a threat.
I do believe that if you do a few minutes of research, you will find that more people died in the American Revolution, and the War of Northern Aggression than in all the wars since. The destructive power of so called "crude weapons" is astounding. This is one of the reason our modern society insists upon fighting a "Steril War" nowadays. Wanna guess who wins a "Steril War"?

My point behind starting this whole thread was this: Politicians have VERY short memories unless they are being paid to remember something. I find it ironic that if it doesn't fire a smokeless cartridge then it is probably harmless according to the government, and they call us sheep!!

There are advantages to us constantly electing idiots!!

Joe
 

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A restraining order would prohibit you from legally possessing one in most States i am familiar with. Carrying concealed is usually worded as "carrying a concealed WEAPON" not firearm.

Kudu40
 
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