[broom_jm]

I have been wondering lately if older cartridge cases, like the 30/30 and 35 Remington, are actually capable of higher pressure than they typically are loaded to in factory ammo, as long as they are being used in a strong, modern action? Is the thickness and design of the case what limits the pressure it can safely tolerate, or was the pressure limit established based largely on the type and strength of the typical action it was chambered in, when standardized by SAAMI?

I know the 8x57 Mauser rounds you usually get in the US are held to low pressure because of the potential for them to be fired in very old rifles. The RWS loads for it are a lot hotter and meant for stronger or more modern actions.

Have any of you experimented with higher pressure (say 50,000psi) from a 30/30, in a strong bolt-action rifle?

 

[kdub]

Think it is a case of both, broom.

Thin walled cases and actions not quite as strong as regular bolt guns.

 

[BarkBuster20]

I dont see any reason why you couldnt load a .30-30 up in a modern bolt action to at least 50,000 psi.

 

[William Iorg]

Phil Sharpe wrote an article for the March 1952 issue of the American Rifleman titled “That Old Thutty Thutty.” Sharpes friend Dick Hart brought a Winchester Hi-Wall close chambered for the 30-30 to test. The rifle handled large over loads with no difficulty what ever. The rifle also delivered excellent accuracy.

Our experience with the standard 30-30 in the lever action rifles is that when we begin raising pressure we experience sticky extraction accompanied by short case life due to stretching and the case cracking or breaking at the pressure ring.

We have loaded the 30-30 Ackley Improved to what we believe is well over 50,000 CUP with excellent case life and no hint of extraction problems.

The 25-35 cartridge will stick in the TC barrels when loaded to maximum published pressures and any attempt at raising pressures will result in a broken extractor.
The 25-35 loaded to higher pressures in the new Winchester Angle Eject Model 94 works perfectly with no indication of sticky extraction.

Some handloaders on the Marlin board have loaded the 35 Remington high pressure in the Marlin 336 with no difficulty.

 

[hailstone]

Would also suspect that better steels, better heat treating process, closer tolerances and better knowledge base contribute too use of higher pressures today.

 

[broom_jm]

I wonder if improved manufacturing processes also result in more consistency within the brass cases we use, allowing slight increases in pressure, so long as the rifle's action is up to it? I know the 225 Winchester case is similar in basic dimensions to the 30/30 (smaller rim size) but what I don't know is if it has a thicker web area, which allows much higher pressures?

 

[BarkBuster20]

I wonder if improved manufacturing processes also result in more consistency within the brass cases we use, allowing slight increases in pressure, so long as the rifle's action is up to it? I know the 225 Winchester case is similar in basic dimensions to the 30/30 (smaller rim size) but what I don't know is if it has a thicker web area, which allows much higher pressures?

The 30-30 case should withstand more pressure than is safe in whatever modern bolt action rifle your using, since when did anyone ever suggest the 30-30 case was thin, or weak? If your not going over 50,000 psi, why give it a second thought?

 

[ribbonstone2]

Don't doubt the thickness, and it;s the same basic brass alloy. Case necks are a bit thinner than modern 30cal. cases, and if there going to be a problem, it would be at the front end.... probably just shorter case life before neck splitting and not a major safety issue.

Have made .225WCF brass from (unfired)30-30's without any detectable problems, but that case is short enough after forming that the thin mouth is trimmed away. Those formed 225's were a little bit larger in volume, so I assume they were a bit thinner than factory .225's, but it wasn't a drastic amount.

In bolt actions, were a good number or Remingron 788's made in 30-30, a few old Winchester 70's. and probably a few other high presure rifles. Lots of Savage 340's, but that action isn't well suited to the high pressure life.

 

[MikeG]

I'll admit to loading the .35 Rem above the books; probably somewhere between 35,000 and 40,000psi. That's not just a guess but got some verification from a friend with pressure trace equipment.

The modern Marlin (336) seems to handle it with no problem. Heck I even neck-size the cases.......

 

[William Iorg]

Mike,

Your post reminded me, many of us experimented using the longer 38-55 brass in the 375 Winchester due to its slightly larger case capacity. I don’t recall anyone having a problem loading the older and rather thin 38-55’s to full and beyond 375 Winchester performance levels.

When I think back on this I am grateful I didn’t break any cases. My experience with the 45-70 indicates a case broken at the pressure ring moves forward up into the throat and sometimes requires a chamber cast of Cerrosafe to push it out.

 

[broom_jm]

I have no idea how one would go about testing brand new 30/30 cases to see how much pressure they can withstand before you get a head separation or other failure, but I would be very interested. When you look at the 308 family of cartridges, it is interesting to me that they don't all have more or less the same pressure standards, and there doesn't even seem to be a rhyme or reason, like the pressure going down as the caliber goes up.

I know it's a slippery slope to even look at pressure standards, but my whole motivation here is to understand if it's the BRASS that limits pressure, or the action design and strength, or both. My guess is it's really a combination of the two, but that just makes me wonder how much hotter you could load a 30/30 case in say, an Encore barrel or a good strong bolt-action rifle. Does anyone know how this could be tested safely? Not with a real gun, obviously.

 

[Cheezywan]

"I think" that cost of materal is making cases some thinner than they used to be. Notice mostly in diameter of copper wire. Is happening like what happened to wood (remember when a 2X4 measured 2"X 4". Is NOW near 1.5" X 3.5")

Also note that a cartridge case is ONLY A GASKET for containing the presure in a firearm. The "firearm itself" is what holds the presure!

My thought only on the event!

Cheezywan

 

[William Iorg]

Ask your Library for an interlibrary load on Earl Naramore’s Principles and Practices of Loading Ammunition. This will give you a good start at under standing cartridge brass.

There are examples we can discuss. For instance the 256 Winchester Magnum that has a higher operating pressure than the 357 Magnum. When you form 256 Winchester cases from 357 Magnum parent brass and load it to the highest published pressure levels you will break the cases within four shots. If you make the cases from 357 Maximum cases, you will have good case life but it is a little harder to form with some inside neck reaming necessary.

Fun stuff!

 

[HURRICANECOWBOY]

I don`t know from experiance, but Speer manual #13 says " The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. attempting to load hotter would risk a dangerous case failure." If the modern cases are held to SAMI specs, wouldn`t this still hold true? I dont have a 30-30 bolt gun to try this in even if I had the guts to do so.

 

[broom_jm]

I don`t know from experiance, but Speer manual #13 says " The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. attempting to load hotter would risk a dangerous case failure." If the modern cases are held to SAMI specs, wouldn`t this still hold true? I dont have a 30-30 bolt gun to try this in even if I had the guts to do so.

I don't have the guts either, which is why I was wondering if there is equipment made for exactly such testing. Maybe the 30/30 CAN be loaded as high as 50,000psi, but no reputable gun company is going to come out and make that common knowledge because someone will inevitably try to load an older Model 94 to such pressure and blow himself up.

It's kind of like the 44/40 case, which can indeed be loaded to much higher pressure than anything the factory turns out today, provided such rounds are fired in a strong action like the Model '92 and not a revolver. The other old dual-action round, the 45LC, is exactly the same way, which is why some guys would like to see a bolt-action in that chambering.

 

[kludge]

In my way of thinking, chamber pressure was limited by the action/chamber steel in such cartridges as the .30-30 and .35 Rem.. And mostly by the chamber steel. Old levers that fail do so when the chamber spilts. So that's catastrophic failure. The other failure is during firing the chamber stretches and the brass stretches with it. At some point you will exceed the elastic capability of the brass, and when the chamber comes back to it's original size, the brass can't, now you have brass stuck in the chamber. Not a catastrophic failure, but a very frustrating one.

Give me a .35 Rem and a Savage bolt action, and I'll load it up to 55kpsi; slowly of course.

Dick Casull and John Linebaugh have had no problems loading "weak" .45 Colt brass up to ungodly pressures - in appropriately sized and strong chambers.

 

[BarkBuster20]

I don't have the guts either, which is why I was wondering if there is equipment made for exactly such testing. Maybe the 30/30 CAN be loaded as high as 50,000psi, but no reputable gun company is going to come out and make that common knowledge because someone will inevitably try to load an older Model 94 to such pressure and blow himself up.

It's kind of like the 44/40 case, which can indeed be loaded to much higher pressure than anything the factory turns out today, provided such rounds are fired in a strong action like the Model '92 and not a revolver. The other old dual-action round, the 45LC, is exactly the same way, which is why some guys would like to see a bolt-action in that chambering.

I dont think even a newer '94 would come close to handling 50,000 psi, its about the action. Chamber a WBY or ruger for 30-30 and 50,000 would be cake.

 

[roverboy]

I read an article once by Layne Simpson and he loaded .35 Rem. brass to higher pressure in a Rem. 760 pump. I remember him getting 2350 fps or so with a 200 gr. bullet. I once worked up to 30 gr. IMR4198 with a 150 gr. Hornady rn. That was in a Marlin 336 .30-30. The loading manuals usually list only about 26-27 gr. as max. with a 150 gr. and IMR4198. Yeah I know it was hot , but I worked up to it and had no problems.

 

[William Iorg]

Not really a matter of guts. The 30-30 case is simply not a good case design for high pressure loading. As Sharpe proved the case will handle high pressure when fired from a strong firearm.
The post 1964 Model 94 action will certainly take 50,000 CUP with out any signs of distress when the Improved cartridge shape is used for the case. There is a big difference in the back thrust on the bolt face between the standard 30-30 and the Improved case.

You may not have seen this thread when it went through. Read Assassin’s posts, starting with post #26 on the second page.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813&highlight=Improved+cartridge

 

[HURRICANECOWBOY]

That thread only reinforces why I joined this forum. Only wish I had all this info 30 yrs. ago!