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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
 

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DOK said:
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!

What god do they believe in? Do they believe in God or a god? I believe in the God of the Bible. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. God was born into flesh as Jesus the Messiah. I have placed my faith in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I am saved through my faith in him and his sacrifice. My hope is evidenced in His resurrection. I am awed and humbled by the Love which led him to do this.

There are many who profess a faith in a god which they think is God. They attend churches which pretend to be Christian. These churches bend the Gospel to make it palatable to the men of this age. The Father has been watered down to the point where there are no sermons on judgement, no teaching of the real fear and trembling we should feel when approaching the Lord. These churches do not teach of the judgment seat, they only preach a message of love so that they don't affend anyone, They accept sin as normal mainstream life so that they don't offend anyone.

The leaders of these churches can't understand why their membership rolls are crumbling. At the same time, churches who preach the Gospel are growing. People have a need to hear the whole truth of the Gospel and will seek it out.

There are many others in America that worship an amorphous god which is outside any biblical teaching. A god which, in their words, is beyond understanding, unapproachable, and uninterested in what happens in the world.

Do you remember how after 9/11 the Doonsbury strip had an interview with a character who said "My God wouldn't allow this to happen"? Well, friend, your god is not God.

Amen
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #5
30hshtr

Sounds like a pretty firm indictment, would you happen to have any formal references, surveys, analysis, etc. that supports your conclusions? For example, are these situations nation wide, more specific in certain geographic locations, more unique to specific churches, etc.?

Dan
 

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DOK said:
Sounds like a pretty firm indictment, would you happen to have any formal references, surveys, analysis, etc. that supports your conclusions? For example, are these situations nation wide, more specific in certain geographic locations, more unique to specific churches, etc.?

Dan

I guess I need a clarification of your question. Are you referring to my comment on the shift from liberal to fundamental churches, or my indictment of the liberal churches as watering down the gospel to please men?
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #7
Sir,

I was addressing the comments made in the second and fourth paragraphs. Wondered if the conclusions were based on personal and general observation or specific studies performed with scientific sampling?

I suspect we all conclude from personal observation that liberalism is a definite trend, but I really haven't seen what I would call an independent study done via appropriate statistical sampling. I know, if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck! But sure would feel more comfortable if I had access to an impartical study(s) that support the duck conclusion.

Appreciate your time.

Dan
 

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DOK said:
Sir,

I was addressing the comments made in the second and fourth paragraphs. Wondered if the conclusions were based on personal and general observation or specific studies performed with scientific sampling?

I suspect we all conclude from personal observation that liberalism is a definite trend, but I really haven't seen what I would call an independent study done via appropriate statistical sampling. I know, if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck! But sure would feel more comfortable if I had access to an impartical study(s) that support the duck conclusion.

Appreciate your time.

Dan

Thanks Dan:

I will answer in snippets over a couple of days. I am travelling and only have internet access at work. Let us start with a look at the most vocal voice for change and watering down the gospel, Rev. Bishop (Ret.) of Newark, John Shelby Spong. I hope this link works.

http://www.liberator.net/articles/LiberatorMark/Spong.html

You may have to copy and paste into your browser. This article states the facts far better than I could.

On September 2nd and again yesterday the Archbishop of Canterbury said that he believes the Anglican Communion is headed for a major split over these issues and that this split cannot be stopped.

When I read the New Testament I am reading the words of men who walked with the Lord and the words of Paul who received the Gospel directly from the Lord. This revelation to Paul was accepted by the other Apostles.

Am I to listen to the likes of Spong who lives today and admits that he has no revelation or to those who knew the Lord? Quack (there is that duck!)

We are free from the Mosaic law in Christ, but are not free to sin and change the Gospel to suit ourselves.

Yours in Christ

Willis.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #9
Willis,

Appreciate and enjoyed your response, very well done and yes, the web site address worked just fine. I'll pass the article on to other interested parties.

"Am I to listen to the likes of Spong who lives today and admits that he has no revelation or to those who knew the Lord? Quack (there is that duck!)" Me thinks we have a duck!

Dan
 

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Like Fletcher Brothers says: We are "one nation under God," but if we remove God from America, we'll be "one nation under."
 

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DOK said:
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
There are two issues. One is the idea of the state establishing a religion - a belief in a god. The second is the fact that both of these things were not originated by the Founding Fathers. They were introduced in the McCarthy era to save us from the "godless communists". While I do not think that having "In God We Trust" on money and "Under God" in our pledge is the end of the world or anything close to it, I do believe that it is an issue that should be looked at very closely. I do not see how either side can easily dismiss it.

As for telling the 14% to sit down and shut up - isn't our government supposed to protect the minority from tyranny of the mob, just as it's supposed to protect us from the tyranny of aristocracy?
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #12
Well sir,

Good response and yes, I do appreciate and take seriously the intent to prevent the state from establishing a "state religion". But first of all, I was being "humorous" and secondly, I'm not sure, if I am to believe the Democrats, that the government has protected us from the aristocracy? And I'm also not too sure the 86% represents a mob, we just look that way! And certainly agree care has be taken to protect minorities, but I know you're not suggesting that just because some group is a minority, it has special rights.....that's reserved for constituants like "miniority" frogs, smails, etc...

Anyway, Thistlethorn, my firend, you'll have to excuse me because I've watched too many debates recently and am just not myself!

Dan
 

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Thistlethorn said:
There are two issues. One is the idea of the state establishing a religion - a belief in a god.
How exactly do you equate establishing an official state church with a simple belief in God? The founding documents reference the Creator God, so obviously at least some of the founders believed in God or a god. Almost every federal building and monument in Washington, including the supreme court building, are inscribed with bible verses and/or references to God, so what of it? In the House, Moses, holding the 10 commandments is looking down on the Speaker, so what of it? These were not added in the 1950's but have been there since the beginning.

The other portion of the ammendment you are referring to is that congress shall make no law.....or prohibiting the free excercise thereof. Now, let's see....congress, that would be the US congress, no? "Free excercise," oh, like the State of Alabama choosing to excercise it's freedom? Right, the US congress shall make no law prohibiting the free excercise of religion by the State of Alabama.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
TPM,

Sir, you ask, "How exactly do you equate establishing an official state church with a simple belief in God?"

Unfortunately a simple belief in God frequently becomes a simple belief in my God. So the question I have is, “Who’s God?” Since our founding fathers belief in God is frequently referenced, let me use that time period as an example. Many of the America’s first settlers did not belong to the established church of their country of origin. They came here seeking religious freedom for themselves, but not for others. Most colonies in the New World set up their own official churches. Their members discriminated against, or treated unfairly, people who were not of that faith. Roger Williams was a Puritan preacher who was forced to leave Massachusetts Bay Colony because he was in favor of freedom of religion for all people. So it appears that even in the beginning when religious freedom was a primary reason for people coming the America, “belief in God” was frequently “my God, my way” with all the inherent discriminations.

In 1789, James Madison included protection of religious freedom when he wrote the Bill of Rights, so our current the religious freedoms in question are not recent developments. Thomas Jefferson also believed in religious freedom and wrote the law that ended state support for the established church in Virginia. Note that Virginia, one of the birthplaces of our nation, had an established church that was state supported. I suggest that in addition to “state supported”, the phrases “state promoted” or “state discouraged” are legal considerations, thus no governmental organization (that includes schools and office buildings) may promote a religion. To promote "a" religion is to discriminate against any of the other religions. And it seems to me that the ten commandants is rather specific to a given religion and infringes not only on the non-believer’s rights, but also on other frequently practiced religions.

So it appears to me that a “simple belief in God” is not at risk, but rather the risk of governmental promoting or favoring a religion. I personally feel that separation of State and Religion is appropriate and does not lessen, but rather strengthens each citizen’s right for a “simple belief in God”……or not to believe in God without discrimination.

Respectfully,

Dan
 

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Dan, my comments were directed towards Thistlethorn's words that religion=belief in God. Thus, it's wrong for the State to promote a simple belief in God, as opposed to establishing a State church. These are quite different issues.

Dan, what do you think of the Judeo/Christian scriptures and ten commandments inscribed on virtually every federal building/monument in Washington, including the supreme court building and house? Why are there no such Hindu, Muslim, (or Atheist for that matter) inscriptions?

Why was it that for nearly two hundred years, the US public school system used Christian readers and the bible as the basic tools for education? Why, during the same period, was it also recommended by the government that all teachers read the bible?

Why did the founders use God as the basis for their declaration of Independence? Would this not be considered promoting a belief in God?
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #17
TPM,

Sir, read your comments and will respond......but my boss says I'm to get ready for going out to supper with my in-laws and tomorrow I'll be out of town, so it will Friday before I get a chance to get back with you. Looking forward to the discussion.

Dan
 

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..."God" has been cut from city hall in Sparks, Nevada. City hall had been displaying patriotic signs with an American flag and the words "God Bless America" since the 9-11 attacks. But the Reno-Journal reports city attorney Chet Adams became concerned that the reference to God could invite lawsuits. As a result, a city employee used scissors to cut "God" from the signs, which now read "Bless America." Adams told the newspaper that displaying the word "God" inside city hall is inadvisable. He cites the Ten Commandments case in Alabama and a finding by a federal appeals court that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. However, the city worker who did the snipping says she finds the situation troubling. Jan Holman says "it's such a sad state of affairs" when people cannot express themselves because it might offend someone. [AP]

Psalms 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into h e l l, and all the nations that forget God.

Psalms 50:22 - Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.

Romans 1:28 - And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
 

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For some reason, this site automatically edits out the word: h e l l, even when it's a quote from the bible?
 
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