Would Ask ---??

Do you(in fact) want it all ?? "Brush,heavy timber,less than 75yds,up to 150+". Maybe a sleeved bbl weapon that you can pull out as much bbl as you will need for the shot that presents itself,then twist lock it in place ?? 7-8 inches of drop vs. 12+ inches ??

Ok,ok,I'm thru being a wise A$$,but.......you are makeing the problem waaaaay too hard to solve. So do allot of other people. As stated in your other thread,I hunt the very thick stuff. But......I can/do break out into a small hammock that will have the potential for a 75yd or 100yd shot. That is if I am too lazy to make the attempt to stalk up to close the range,winds bad,surrounded by fan palmetto's(sound),water hazard,or freash gator drag marks. My 1895 is an older model that has had the bbl chopped to 16 1/4 inches. Do I wish that I had a longer bbl ?? HECK NO !! Why ?? I have punched enough paper at different ranges that I know where the bullet will hit. Velocity loss with a short bbl ?? Who cares/not enough to worry about.

At the closer ranges,I say,don't worry about the bullets B.C,and to a certin extent,velocity. The difference between the max load and a 900-1000fps load could tend to cause a problem at.....say.....150yds.....BUT....thats if you don't punch paper. And who loads a <1000fps load for hunting anyway ?? Well actually I do for my wife's .45-70,but thats another story/post.

So,load simi-hot to hot(or untill your sholder sez "whoa"),practice with the load at different ranges(heck,300yds iffen ya feel it's needed)have a good quality sight/scope,then.......ferget bbl length and velocity.

What's wrong with a 16" bbl'ed 45-70 for the closer range hunting. If you gotta worry about the bbl length,bullet B.C.,and velocity,I say....trade that ol' 45-70 for a .308Win.,start hunting out west,and start worrying about all that other stuff.

The above is posted with the utmost respect for my fellow hunter/shooter. -----pruhdlr

 

Do you(in fact) want it all ?? "Brush,heavy timber,less than 75yds,up to 150+".

LOL, maybe not all, but I am trying to get as much gun as possible for hard earned money. I do like your frank writing style on a Monday morning... I had to have a chuckle.

The trouble with the range reports that I read, is that he was unclear about what kind of loads he was using. My guess is that the 18.5" with the right ammo is going to cover 95% of the situations that I would encounter where I hunt. I was just curious what others thought, particularly for longer shots. That said, it is no substitute for knowing your gun, your ammo and what you are capable of doing with it.

The above is posted with the utmost respect for my fellow hunter/shooter. -----pruhdlr

Muchly appreciated!

 

I shoot the Marlin Guide Gun and the Winchester Timber rifle from ground blinds and in the chained cedar. The shooting distances are close.
I tend to use the 322-grain Gould bullet – Lyman 457122HP in the Marlin. This bullet gives me good accuracy and kills both deer and pigs quickly.
45.0 grains of Reloder 7 gives me 1,950 fps from the short barrel.
I have a Weaver V-3 on my rifle and it works fine even in the shadows.

I don’t like the ports. None of my family will hunt with me when I use these rifles and I try to wear double hearing protection when sitting in a ground blind – this includes just a brush blind.
I do not recommend ported rifles for use in blinds.
Other than the scope I have made no modifications to this rifle.

 

I bought a 1895 with the 22" blued barrel in January. All the barrel lengths were availble and I was able to shoulder them all. To me the stainless 24" barrel came to point the best, not much differant for the blued 22", and the stainless 18 1/2" felt a little muzzle light. I wasn't concerned about straight or pistol grip.

Since the 22" blued rifle felt good, the fact that it was the cheapest cinched the deal. I don't have any regrets. It's fun to shoot.

I reload and first loaded some 300gr Remington HP at around 1900fps. They shot real well, even with the factory sights. I then bought a Skinner receiver sight and loaded some 405gr Remington SP to about 1600fps. These did very well also.

A few months later my order for Beartooths 425gr Piledriver Jr. arrived so I loaded up a mess of these at about 1650fps. These are great. A bit over 2" group at 100 yards with 12 slowly shot rounds, that made one big jagged hole. I did use a 3/4" shoulder pad to soften the recoil since I don't have a recoil pad on the stock. I've decided this is my hunting load. (After the session with the 45-70 I shot my little .308 and it felt like I was shooting an old 22 Hornet I used to have).

I hunt a lot of brush and dense timber for deer and elk here in SW Washington and, for me, up to 50 yards would be an average shot, 100-150 yards would be a long shot, and 200 yards would be a very, very long shot, although with the 45-70 I was able to arch a shot and hit a steel chicken at the 200 yard mark. I did try a couple of rainbow shots at the steel ram at 500 yards. Couldn't tell for sure but I think I scared it. Bottom line, up to 100 yards I'll take my 45-70 and the critter walks over 150 yards. Over 100 yards I'll carry my scoped 30-06 and the critter walks over 300 yards.

These are just MY opinions. I consider myself a good shot and an average hunter. There are many more skilled shooters and hunters out there than I am, but I get my fair share, and have fun doing it. Pick your tool, learn to use it, work within its limitations (as YOU define it's limitations).

Big bullets are fun, Dave

 

To me, the problem isn't 12" vs. 8" (just aim 4" higher), it's the ability to accurately judge the distance. I suspect most 45-70 hunters don't carry a range finder and my ability to judge distance isn't very good....but yours may be much better. I don't know that I can accurately tell the difference between 200 or 225 or even 250 and that becomes even more of a problem with a 45-70. So if I think I'll have 200 yard shots, I carry something that shoots relatively flat even if it's 4" longer length.

Dan

 

I happpened to chronograph my elk load yesterday with my 18" GG, and my 22" rifle, results were pretty predictable velocity gain for barrel length. The load is composed of a speer 300 jfp, H322, and WLR primers.

18'GG 2080fps with 175 yard zero 3.7" high at 100, 3.1 low at 200
22" rifle 2240fps with 175 yard zero 3.0" high at 100, 2.0" low at 200

So, not lots of difference in the two for elk size critters. Of course with heavier bullets the arc is going to be larger. For 150 yard range its a toss up as to which rifle you like best.

james

 

That's interesting, but what is the impact velocity of the 300g bullet at 200 yards? Is there enough gas left to give you the wound forensics you desire?

A heavier bullet, even though it requires more elevation to get it there, gets there with a LOT more gas.

I'd be curious to see the retained energy and velocity on that 300. It might be OK, but it might make someone think twice about what's gonna happen when it gets there.

I'm just saying,

Grizz

 

That's interesting, but what is the impact velocity of the 300g bullet at 200 yards? Is there enough gas left to give you the wound forensics you desire?

A heavier bullet, even though it requires more elevation to get it there, gets there with a LOT more gas.

I'd be curious to see the retained energy and velocity on that 300. It might be OK, but it might make someone think twice about what's gonna happen when it gets there.

I'm just saying,

Grizz

I use Rem300JHP's for whitetail with my guide gun (45-70). I took a buck at 125yds with it one year. That thing went down faster than getting hit with a UPS truck on christmas eve.

My loads are under the listed max for H4198 but they are zipping along pretty good for a hunk of lead.

I've not chronied the loads probably because I leave that stuff for the finer points of shooting my .257weatherby mag at 425yds and beyond

 

Get the gun you want. Deal with the trajectory you get. Go woodchuck hunting and you'll know that rainbow like your wife's face.

 

Good point on the energy figures and velocity at 200 yds, here's the data:

300 grain at 2100 fpsMV, V@200 yds 1429 fps E=1361 ft-lb
300 grain at 2240 fps MV, V@200 yds 1567 fps, E=1567 Ft-lb

Griz give me the wt, velocity and B.C. of your Heavy and we'll compare, I'm sure the heavy will win in the energy dept. Will anything be expanding at that distance (200 yds), or are we going to have .458 holes in critters? Lots of questions, Speer doesn't list a velocity range for expansion on these 300's, but I'm guessing 1500fps is getting kinda slow for reliable expansion. Anyone with some actual experience with 1500 fps and the speer? Maybe Captainjoe can tell us what he is hunting, he might be able to use a bullet that is constructed lighter that will still expand at the velocitys that the 300 grainers retain at 200 yds.

The variables just keep piling up..


james

 

Maybe Captainjoe can tell us what he is hunting, he might be able to us a bullet that is constructed lighter that will still expand at the velocitys that the 300 grainers retain at 200 yds.
james

I'm hunting deer and elk. Thanks for this data. I've searched the internet, and you are the first one that I have seen that has given hard data of .45-70 at 150 yds and beyond. I have a friend who I have sent the link to this thread who is very interested in your findings as well.

 

Get the rifle that feels best to you. You will never be able to tell a difference between them in the field.

 

I have two MArlin 45/70s one a 24 inch stainless and the other a 18.5 inch guide gun. For bush I love the shorty but I am curious about the need for 24 inches on the XLR rifle. I presume Marlin did this for best performance with the new plastic tipped bullets? Anyone care to enlighten me?

 

captainjoe, I'm certainly not an expert, I've had a couple 45-70's and hunted with them in the past but never made a shot. The Chrono data for my load is helpful and using the ballistic coefficient from speer and Hornady's external ballistic program you can come up with the figures out to 300 yds and beyond. Usefull tools to be sure. I guess I should load up some of the 300 speers at 1500 fps and shoot them into some wet news print to see how they expand, that would be the bottom line in approximating 200 yrd performance. There is a gentleman on this site that has done some testing with the 300 Speer, Maybe he'll chime in.. He goes by Golsovia (sorry if that is misspelled) on marlin owners, not sure what his handle is here.
james

 

I guess I should load up some of the 300 speers at 1500 fps and shoot them into some wet news print to see how they expand, that would be the bottom line in approximating 200 yrd performance. There is a gentleman on this site that has done some testing with the 300 Speer, Maybe he'll chime in.. He goes by Golsovia (sorry if that is misspelled) on marlin owners, not sure what his handle is here.
james

Many thanks for this. Yes, we'll do some experimenting. That's half the fun isn't it? It will be a while before I can get to it, but I'll post our results.

 

Captainjoe, I was looking around over at marlin owners , did a search for speer 300, and came up with this among many threads, Golsovia already did the wet newprint test @1500 fps..

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,46387.15.html

lots of info under the bullet testing heading.

James

 

Thanks for this. I'll do some digging!

 

1895c

I like this one and the barrel length is great for me.
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/Cowboy/1895Cowboy.asp

 

James, that's still more ooooomph than a 44 mag at the barrel, so anything you'd be comfortable shooting point blank with a that weight bullet in a handgun is fair for your application.

I think you're not up-to-date on the hard cast bullets that Marshall, our host here, makes. They have a big flat meplat and cause pretty instantaneous death at the business end. With .458 flat meplat bullets, expansion is not necessary.

My 452g BTB hard cast leaves my guide gun at 1775 fps or at 1963 fps, depending on which pocket I dig them out of. Try that in your calculator. But that's my light load.

My constant carry load is the 525g BTB departing the guide gun at about 1470 fps. There is a tangible, visceral difference in observed effects on inanimate objects that bullet encounters, compared to the light load. It also penetrates 12 to 13 one gallon jugs of water, which roughly translates to about four feet of animal tissue.

My handgun hunting load used to be a 320g pb cast with smaller meplat that departed my hand gun around 1150 fps, or so. I took maybe thirty blacktails with that load. No expansion. Never lost a deer. Never tracked a deer, and only recovered one bullet that traveled along the spine and destroyed a bunch of it.

So if you think of your 300g load as a very long barrel hand gun you will get the idea of how 45/70s work. I'd recommend the BTB 325g bullet, which has the exact same profile as the 425 and the 525. That bullet shape feeds better in Marlins than any other one I've tried. And it has the large meplat that is SOOOOO effective as a game taker.

Finally, I second Ed, find the gun you like to shoot, find the load it likes to shoot, and learn to shoot that combination. There's nothing you can't do with it if you take the time to learn how.

Regards,

Grizz

 

My 452g BTB hard cast leaves my guide gun at 1775 fps or at 1963 fps, depending on which pocket I dig them out of. Try that in your calculator. But that's my light load.

That just cracked me up

Hope you dont have many pockets. LOL

Good grief, that's got to whack you some for a "light load". I hadnt shot my 45-70 in about a year (shame on me) and today I didnt take my "little" 300gr Rem JHP's too seriously for kickage. My shoulder still hurts. Sure woke me up in a hurry. I took to shooting in the seated position after that.

 

Part of the answer depends on the load . If you are trying to max out velocity w/ slow burning powder , the velocity difference with the longer barrel will be greater than w/ s light load of fast burning powder .

With iron sights , the longer barrel = longer sight radius = some improvement in accuracy , maybe .

With scope , probably no difference .

God bless
Wyr

 

Ballistics aside...the 22" 1895 balances the best I think...the Guide Guns and XLR's just don't feel right to me.

 

Trying To Understand........

.......your apparent misunderstanding of my above post(#2). I have no problem with trying to help someone with a problem,weather real or preceived. I simply was trying to inject some humor into the post and was not trying to come off as someone that you stated I was in your ellegant PM.

I feel that my post gave my true feelings about the OP'ers "problem". I added the last paragraph just to make sure he did not take offense to my post. I felt that he was worrying needlessly about a non-problem,problem. If the post would have asked about the difference between a 30"bbl and a 16.5" bbl at 500yds,I surely would have responded differently.

I hunt witin the ranges that the OP stated. I have found(by punching a heck of allot of paper)that the difference in velocities of 100(or so) fps means squat. All that matters is for the shooter to know the POI given the POA. Practice this and it makes no difference in the bbl length(velocity),within reason.

So finally to the OP'er,if he was offended,I apologize. And to you sir(Tnhunter)I promise you that my post count(as per your somewhat head scratchin' PM)is the least of my worries.

Best regards right back atcha. -----pruhdlr

 

I sure hope the "whatever the problem was" is settled and we're back to shooting and hunting....please.

Dan

 

You know I think in all honesty a 22" barrel is handy enough in any kind of scrub, or even in a vehicle. Once you start getting those really short barrels your hearing tends to cop a flogging. And being ported, the guide gun probably won't win too many friends in that department either.

I had a 22" barrel .45/70 in poor condition, and I always wanted to get it refinished and rebarrelled with a moderately heavy 28" barrel and a full length tube. The Marlin Cowboy .45/70 actually comes with a 26" barrel, but it is still a light rifle. If I bought another .45/70 Marlin it would be one of them.

 

16.5" Marlin 444 XLR (modified). 300 grain bullet at 2200, and 325 grain bullet at 2150. Short, light, handy, accurate, and powerful.

 

325 grain bullet at 2150.

That's about double the velocity of my blackhawk with the 10" barrel. What are the zero points of the trajectory?

I like the look of your rifle but have often thought that a trapper would look better if the forearm was shorter. Maybe a lot shorter, like the size of the lightning (pump action) forearm. What do you think? The rest of the forearm is just dead weight anyway.

Grizz

 

Grizz; I get those velocities in that short barrel because I modified the action cycling spaces and the COAL to 2.650 (actually a bit more depending on what bullet is used). As far as the zero points of the trajectory....I sight dead on at 25 yards, and from the muzzle to 100 yards (and this is with a 2.5 power scope and a blind old guy shooting) I can put all my shots within a 2" vertical. For the type of hunting I do now, I will never get to take a 100 yard shot (the cover is just way too tight/thick) and even 50 yard shots are iffy, so its strictly set up for close in work and I have never really ventured beyond that point. If I was to go out west and the hunting grounds were a bit more "roomy" then I would spend some time with this gun working at the longer distances.

I guess that forearm lenght is a matter of preference...I tend to support the forearm from the center point, and it feels comfortable to me. As far as dead weight, that Kevlar/Graphite forearm weighs next to nothing....matter of fact, the whole stock weighs next to nothing. When I got the stock from MPI, I thought they had forgotten to put it in the box before they shipped it!!!!

 

Flat Top

It would be very interesting to do a jug assault with your hot .444 and then same round loaded down to half throttle. Which one would penetrate farther?

Regards,

Grizz

 

Griz; I am going to do a comparison of the 325, and that little project that we have been working on...you will be the first to know the results!!!