Furthest iv seen a good double lunged buck go is about 70 yards. that was with a 30-30 with 170 grain corelokts at 5 yards, on a fairly calm deer. If one never had to worry about having a blood trail, i guess a .223 rem with proper bullets could probably be "suitable" for most anything in the lower 48. Most places that i have seen, where deer hang out also have at least some cover... just saying.
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I'm sure if i get to the number of deer you have taken, i will likely have had to trail one 100+ yards too. Good point about the doe's, a small doe or even medium sized doe isnt hard to kill at all. Where you hunt is there access to dogs for following a blood trail?
I just dont think there is many circumstances where a .223 would be a reliable deer killer, at least you would eventually lose some well shot deer. In the situation you describe it would probably be very usefull. I consider the .243 the bare minimum for a good deer rifle, which require very precise shot placement, and it is a powerhouse with 100 grain partitions compared to the .223 rem.
I very rarely get a chance to hunt doe's here, and the majority of the bucks around here are mature, so over a span of 20 deer here, you are lucky to have 3-4 does mixed in with probably 10 mature bucks and 6-7 young bucks, versus somone who is hunting small doe's with the occasional buck. That calls for a different type of cartridge requirement, so i understand why theres such variation.
I know and understand why the .223 rem is used for deer, i just dont understand why people are arguing that it is a GOOD deer cartridge, it most certainly isnt, just because a lot of guys have killed a lot of miniature does. The pic showed earlier looked like a barnes tsx, recovered from a double lung shot deer with no bone hit, if the bullet not exiting being as high qaulity as it was is not indication that a .223 rem isnt a deer cartridge, what is?
Heck id use a .223 rem for pronghorn in a pinch with some good tsx bullets, but **** its no deer cartridge or itd be as popular or more than the .243, dont you think id like to shoot a pop gun and witness bang flops? i dont really ENJOY the recoil.
There is a wide range of suitability between the two extremes of "good" and "bad". I never said the 223 was a bad deer cartridge, but it sure isn't a great choice, especially north of the Mason-Dixon.
Mike, on those deer you've had to track quite a ways after being shot with your 257 and '06...did you eventually find your bullet had penetrated completely, allowing for a blood trail that CAN be followed?
It's easy to say the word, "deer" and forget that you're talking about animals that can range in size, quite a bit. The first buck I ever shot was an old Michigan whitetail that dressed out at 160lbs. The third deer I ever shot was a nice 3x3 blacktail, but he only dressed out at 85lbs. The middle one was a scrawny little blacktail that I never bothered to weigh, but if he had been a boy on the playground, he would have been picked last...I'm guessing 60lbs, dressed.
To put it in perspective, my dad shot a blacktail just a few hundred yards away, with a 30 carbine. His shot was aimed behind the ear, but hit the deer a little lower down, in the neck. It only ran 200 yards...STRAIGHT DOWN HILL! Dad cussed that deer, and that gun, swearing he would never again use it on anything bigger than a jack. At the same time, he harvested more than a handful of deer with a 22...Win Mag. The times were tough but the shot conditions were ideal: He was a crack shot back then and hitting an object the size of a brightly lit quarter was no trick at all. And our family ate well for a week or two. Does that mean the 22WMR is a "good" deer rifle? Of course not! Just because a given cartridge "will" kill a deer, does not mean it is a good choice to consistently do so, under a wide variety of conditions.
I find it a bit absurd that this topic even has to be debated, really. So, I'll shut up, now.
Mike, on those deer you've had to track quite a ways after being shot with your 257 and '06...did you eventually find your bullet had penetrated completely, allowing for a blood trail that CAN be followed?
It's easy to say the word, "deer" and forget that you're talking about animals that can range in size, quite a bit. The first buck I ever shot was an old Michigan whitetail that dressed out at 160lbs. The third deer I ever shot was a nice 3x3 blacktail, but he only dressed out at 85lbs. The middle one was a scrawny little blacktail that I never bothered to weigh, but if he had been a boy on the playground, he would have been picked last...I'm guessing 60lbs, dressed.
To put it in perspective, my dad shot a blacktail just a few hundred yards away, with a 30 carbine. His shot was aimed behind the ear, but hit the deer a little lower down, in the neck. It only ran 200 yards...STRAIGHT DOWN HILL!
Dad cussed that deer, and that gun, swearing he would never again use it on anything bigger than a jack. At the same time, he harvested more than a handful of deer with a 22...Win Mag. The times were tough but the shot conditions were ideal: He was a crack shot back then and hitting an object the size of a brightly lit quarter was no trick at all. And our family ate well for a week or two. Does that mean the 22WMR is a "good" deer rifle? Of course not! Just because a given cartridge "will" kill a deer, does not mean it is a good choice to consistently do so, under a wide variety of conditions.I find it a bit absurd that this topic even has to be debated, really. So, I'll shut up, now.
How long before this useless argument ends?????????
It'll probably end about the time one of these guys has a trophy buck move, just as they squeeze the trigger, or when they find out their scope had come loose, shifting POI a few inches. As the deer of their dreams runs off to die a long, slow death, with little chance of tracking it successfully, because those tiny bullets just don't allow for much wiggle room, these guys who are willing to operate on the thinnest margin of acceptable performance will find out what happens when ideal turns into marginal.How long before this useless argument ends?????????
Wisdom is the fruit of failure, by and large...you make enough dumb mistakes and you learn to think things through, allowing yourself a margin for error. When you're young and cock-sure, you'll ride the razor's edge, but after you cut yourself enough times, you smarten up and realize things don't always go just as you planned. In fact, you start to see things clearly and grasp that they RARELY go by-the-book! That's when these guys will figure out that you don't hunt with just barely enough gun...you carry something that will get the job done, and then some. You chamber a cartridge with a bullet that will work when everything is textbook AND when you, or providence, encounter a far less than ideal situation.
Sadly, a lot of people refuse to learn by anything other than their own mistakes; least of all the wisdom, conventional or hard-earned, offered by others. In fact, the most hard-headed guys will push the envelope as far the other direction as possible, just to prove...well, to prove their elders right, by and large. I should know...been there, done that, got the bad memories to prove it.
FWIW, Ken -- These are the "pointless" arguments that should be argued. No, I won't convince jwp to err on the side of caution, or that discretion is the better part of valor. He'll be convinced he's right until backed into a corner and the good Lord delivers an incontrovertible lesson. That doesn't absolve me of the right (and responsibility?) to do my best to shed a little light on the subject, does it? I sure hope not, because, just as I won't shy away from testifying about the Way, the Light, and the Truth, I will not stop sharing what I have learned about other things close to my heart.
P.S. I'm a man of God first, and a man of science, second. Math might get man to the moon, but it is only by grace that he may be redeemed. There is no formula for calculating what a given bullet will do because there is no way to quantify the "spirit" God has endowed his creation with. Hunt long enough, as many of us here have, and this too, will become evident. Hunting's way more fun than MATH, anyway!
In my ridiculous state (Indiana) minimum bore size for a deer rifle is 35 caliber! Well, unless your barrel is short enough to be legally considered a handgun, in which case the minimum is .243" In the rifle, the case can't be more than 1-5/8" long, but in a handgun, you can shoot a 300WM, if you like.
Talk about things that don't make sense, eh?
Talk about things that don't make sense, eh?
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