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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Original 1873-1879 44 Winchester Bullet Profile

CAUTION: This TOPIC and following posts discusses loads or load data that equals or exceeds published maximums for the cartridge(s) mentioned. Neither the writer, The Shooter's Forum, nor the staff of The Shooter's Forum assume any liability for damage or injury resulting from using this information. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THE DESCRIBED LOADS without first working them up from a published safe starting level charge while watching for pressure signs. If you don't know how to do that, don't try.


It has been reported photos are not seen by some.....I see them and do not know why some can not. That problem is beyond my skill level which is not very high to begin with.


Finally got an early 44/100 cartridge for Winchetser's "Model of 1873". It is the bullet profile I always preferred. I was a little surprised it matched Remington's JSP more than any other bullet. It is also Winchester's original factory swaged bullet.

Case Length = 1.311
AOL = 1.620


Winchester's 1875 catalog add.


Swaged bullet, Winchester's 1875 catalog


Original Unheadstamped pre-1884, (maybe pre-1880) Winchester factory swaged bullet with exposed groove. This is certainly different from the WRA 44 WCF headtsmped cartridges I have seen. Note the different case lengths


Amongs't the unheadstamped and WRA headstamped cases that I have.


The head is a bit rounded but doesn't seem to be as rounded as the ones I already have...certainly not flat like the WRA headstamped cases.


Obviously not a Lyman 427098 profile.


Bullet profile comparisons.
 

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No pictures.

What did you mean by 44-100? Surely not a 100gr bullet weight?
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
No pictures.

What did you mean by 44-100? Surely not a 100gr bullet weight?
The pictures are not visible?


EDITED: I used a - rather than a / 44-100 should be 44/100
The Henry and early 44-40 cartridges were labeled 44/100 on the boxes. Simply means 44/100th of an inch or ".44"


Here is a box of Henry cartridges. Box only designates them as 44/100 For Winchester Repeating Rifles. Pat. 1871 so this means that only the 1860 Henry and Winchester 1866 were available...and the photo on the box is a Henry Cartridge


Here is a box of 44-40 cartridges. The box only designates them as 44-100...for the Winchester Repeating Rifle, New Model of 1873
 
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I loaded up a cartridge to try and best represent the original exposed bullet profile. The bullet mold was designed by John Kort and manufactured by Accurate Molds and is the 43-215C. The 43-215C was designed after Lyman's 427098 but with a crimp groove above the forward driving band and a large single lube groove rather than two small lube grooves. The 43-215C has a larger exposed surface area than the 427098. The Winchester JSP and Remington's JSP best replicate the exposed surface area.



 

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Pretty close match. Are some varations in bullet shape/lube groove placement/width, but seems like the ammo just kind of evolved over the years. It's not like you can really duplicate the thin walled/ballon head cases from "back when", so aren't going to easily make actual 100% duplicate ammo.


Not the same...but I did shoot up 40 rounds of UMC .44/40 marked as 'CLMR' (colt Lightening MAgazine Rifle) a few years back....no idea of the actual age of the ammo other than the head stamp...and 37 of the 40 went "bang". (of those, 2 had noticeable hangfires...likely were some in-noticed mirc-hangfires that were faster than I'd notice).

Taught me a lesson in ammo and age: it's not so much how old it is, it's evidently more about how well it was stored.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Pretty close match. Are some varations in bullet shape/lube groove placement/width, but seems like the ammo just kind of evolved over the years. It's not like you can really duplicate the thin walled/ballon head cases from "back when", so aren't going to easily make actual 100% duplicate ammo.


Not the same...but I did shoot up 40 rounds of UMC .44/40 marked as 'CLMR' (colt Lightening MAgazine Rifle) a few years back....no idea of the actual age of the ammo other than the head stamp...and 37 of the 40 went "bang". (of those, 2 had noticeable hangfires...likely were some in-noticed mirc-hangfires that were faster than I'd notice).

Taught me a lesson in ammo and age: it's not so much how old it is, it's evidently more about how well it was stored.

Sounds like you had lots of fun!!!

Contrary to popular belief I have been able to get 40gr by weight of Swiss black powder (my particular batch) in modern cases with only about .21" powder compression. This replicated case loads that John Kort dissected. Can't do this with all black powders since the powder density is different even with different batches. John dissected some 1880-90s cases. Discovered between .20-.24" of compressed black powder. Replaced the dead primers, re-used the bullet and black powder, compressed it to .21" and got about 1,400fps.

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
 
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
No pictures.

What did you mean by 44-100? Surely not a 100gr bullet weight?

I also forgot UMC's box....called it the 44-100

Notice it says

Colt's 44 Caliber C.F. Army Pistol
Winchester's Repeating Rifle Model of 1873
 
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Those are some cool old ammo boxes, SJ. I can't say I would be all that interested in making an exact replica of the original loading, unless I had an original '73 and didn't want to abuse it. With any of the stronger actions, those old loads don't do the round justice. It seems that any semi-wadcutter cast lead bullet of appropriate size or weight works just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Not exact, as in Perfect! I have already shot 40gr of Swiss black powder compressed to .21" in mid 1890's REM- UMC semi-balloon primer pocket cases years ago.

John Kort already did this as well a few years ago hitting targets at 300 meters BUT using a Marlin with a scope. I couldn't hit the backside of a barn at 300 meters without a scope!! https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/accuracy-at-300-by-meters

Nothing here is new except this bullet profile for me. Rather than the UMC type bullet, I want to use an original profile Winchester bullet.

The load John used is as original as it gets. 200gr hand cast 427098 type, black powder lube, 40gr Swiss black powder compressed to .21" using what ever primers floats your boat, he used Remington 2 1/2 primers to replicate the UMC factory loads for the Marlin!!!


He also shot original cartridges but first replacing the dead primers with modern primers.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2015/05/12/Testing-Vintage-44-40-ammunition
 
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Yes, very cool old ammo boxes! I'm glad you are recreating the original load so meticulously. Not many would be so thorough, me included. :D

I was admiring the bullet lube and wondering as to its composition?

RJ
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Yes, very cool old ammo boxes! I'm glad you are recreating the original load so meticulously. Not many would be so thorough, me included. :D

I was admiring the bullet lube and wondering as to its composition?

RJ
It is my understanding that it should/could be yellow bees wax and whale oil. It is old and hard.

One thing John Kort did when shooting old cartridges...he would replace the dead primers and replace the bullet lube. He shot both old and new lube and the new lube closed the groups.

Here are some labels I made years ago. Not to scale, made to fit a larger box


Here are a few other boxes and labels I made


 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)

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Discussion Starter #15
Finally got around to making two early cartridge box labels. Trying to keep in line with the subject of the 44 website, "Two Peas In A Pod".....Winchester's 44 cartridges and Union Metallic's 44 cartridges.


 

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S-J,

A couple of your posts state "pre 1800s" and I'm certain you mean some other date.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
S-J,

A couple of your posts state "pre 1800s" and I'm certain you mean some other date.
:eek:

Lordy let me go look!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
That didn't take long, should be pre-1880
 

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That's kind of what I was thinking based on the discussion! Pretty amazing to find those old cases in that good of condition.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I received my new Accurate Molds 43-208A. Sizing up a tad for modern "loading", but this is the replica of the late 1870's bullet I pulled. I also casts some 42499's. Sorry for the slight glaze on the 43-208A's but I just couldn't find that sweet spot temp for some reason today. Now to take them to the range to see how they perform!!


oops on the glaze



For a recap...

WRA 1878-80ish
Weight - 200gr
Meplat - .274
Nose radius - as seen in photos
Dia. at Heel - .4225 (driving band)
Heel Dia - .421



43-208A
 
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