[glassartisan]

Everyone, thanks again for sharing your wisdom.
Im really liking what Im reading about the 7-08 and the 308. Now I will be getting a after market barrel most likely from bullberry that will be somewhere between 12 and 15 inches. Now this powder burn rate I hear about for certain loads; would I want a faster burn rate the shorter the barrel I get? And the longer barrel a slower burn rate. Im sure that will affect recoil some.With me starting out in the beginning with buying only factory ammo, I can only buy it only one way.Is that true? Im sure I will eventually learn to reload. Appreciate all your comments, Steve

 

[big dan]

don't worry about burn rate, it honestly doesn't matter!! the barrel length/burn rate thing is a held over notion from the blackpowder days when the powder was actually still burning as it traveled down the barrel, with almost all common rifle cartridges the powder is converted to gas before it has a chance to leave the case... in cases like the ultra mags and other big 'uns you might still get some powder into the throat of the barrel but it's not likely.
when you order your barrel i'd recommend inquiring about having the rim portion of the chamber opened up for the 307/444 rim. that way should you start reloading it opens up options in regards to brass, i love the 7/08 in the encore but i think that having a rim to grab onto for extraction would be a real plus!!

 

[pruhdlr]

If Yer Gettin'

So......you've narrowed it down to a 308 or 7-08 ?? Typically the longer the bbl the slower the burn rate of powder used. Shorter=faster. Also the weight of the bullet used will come into play. Possibly the bbl's twist rate also. BUT....I feel that the small difference of 3 inches of bbl(especially given the chemberings that you have chosen)will make little difference.

I still feel that you should decide weather you will reload or not before you dive into this. If not....fine....then you can concentrate on bbl length,and (factory) bullet weight to be used BEFORE ordering a bbl from Bullberry,T/C,or others.

If you choose to reload you can have the best of both(all) worlds. Anywhere between a 100gr,.284cal bullet outta a 12" bbl,to a 200+,.308 outta a 15" bbl. You can build the load that suits your weapon(bbl length),caliber,bullet,and game.

If you choose not to reload then you should pick a caliber,bullet,and bbl length, and "pass it by" the bbl maker for suggestions on length and twist rate. Also possibly for length of throat(free bore). Even bbl contour could come into play re. accuracy.

I would also suggest that you do not allow allot of worry time re. recoil. The effects will be pretty much the same for all 7-08 and for all 308 factory loads. With reloaded ammo you will definitely be able to tell the difference. With either,you will be somewhat accustomed to the effects of recoil. With those two calibers,you will probably learn to enjoy it.

Finally....for shooting a rifle caliber outta a pistol.....I say that it is even more important to reload. Respectfully I say,give it allot of thought. ----pruhdlr

 

[broom_jm]

don't worry about burn rate, it honestly doesn't matter!! the barrel length/burn rate thing is a held over notion from the blackpowder days when the powder was actually still burning as it traveled down the barrel, with almost all common rifle cartridges the powder is converted to gas before it has a chance to leave the case... in cases like the ultra mags and other big 'uns you might still get some powder into the throat of the barrel but it's not likely.
when you order your barrel i'd recommend inquiring about having the rim portion of the chamber opened up for the 307/444 rim. that way should you start reloading it opens up options in regards to brass, i love the 7/08 in the encore but i think that having a rim to grab onto for extraction would be a real plus!!

I beg to differ on both counts: Firing factory ammo from a 12" barrel, with the slower powder those cases are loaded with, generally results in some pretty spectacular muzzle flash and unnecessary recoil. Further, I would not choose a 307 case over the 308, due to the reduced case capacity and increased brass cost. From a T/C Encore, extraction won't be a problem, anyway. If he were to go this direction, a wildcat like the .30 Bower Alaskan, 308 Bellm or 309JDJ would be better choices than the 307.

Pruhdlr really nailed it, on both recoil and cartridge choice. You'll probably grow accustomed to and actually ENJOY the recoil...I know I do! Also, if you're definitely not going to handload, stick with the 30/30 or pistol cartridges. If you ARE going to handload, it opens up many more possibilities...the 7-08 being one of the very best.

 

[big dan]

the muzzle flash is from the gases hitting the oxygen rich atmosphere and the reason that the recoil is sharper in a shorter barrel is because the muzzle pressure is higher when the bullet exits the muzzle in a shorter barrel as opposed to a longer one.

 

[big dan]

as for the difference in case capacity between the 307 & 308, it's a whopping .6gr!! (according to rcbs.load) you'll get more variation in 308 brass from one manufacturer to the next, i guarentee it!
as to the extraction i absolutely agree that the encore is very good in that regard but i have big fingers and flimsy fingernails so a little extra rim would be nice for me... i could have doubled on a mule deer doe & buck this fall but ended up with a folded over finger nail. no fault of the pistol just the circumstances... i'm sure that i'm not the only guy out there who has sucky fingernails or wishes that the encore offered about an extra 1/8" of extractor stroke for cold weather use.

 

[big dan]

for what its worth the 308 bellm, 309jdj and the 307 are all deriatives of the 444 marlin case, the reason that i threw the 307 case out there is that it'd work as is in a 308 and would be a simple neck down for the 7/08 and it'd give identical performance with the same bullet weights...

 

[pruhdlr]

Driftin' Off

Allow me to drift slightly off the OP but.......big dan(and all),take a peek at the Mike Bellm site,specifically the T'Boss,"oh crap!" saver part. This is an added feature that I would opt for if I were after dangerous game or even thought that I might need a quick follow up shot on deer,elk,hogs,and the like.

I have seen a Encore fitted with this and it makes it super easy to extract a fired piece of brass. In fact,you do not even need an extractor. Even the Ackley(straight walled) loadings. -----pruhdlr

 

[broom_jm]

the muzzle flash is from the gases hitting the oxygen rich atmosphere and the reason that the recoil is sharper in a shorter barrel is because the muzzle pressure is higher when the bullet exits the muzzle in a shorter barrel as opposed to a longer one.

Rifle cases fired in pistol-length barrels suffer greatly from both. The shorter the barrel, the worse the blast and recoil. Handloading allows you to select powder/bullet combinations that effectively mitigate these problems. If you do not handload, you are stuck with whatever factory ammunition is available and simply have to live with the blast and unnecessary recoil.

The 30 Bower Alaskan is actually based ON the 307 Winchester case, blown out. The difference in case capacity, per QL, between the 307 and 308 is actually 2 grains, but that's not the point. The point is the difference in pressure, as a result. Compare the velocity of top loads for either cartridge in your load books and you'll see what I mean...this drop in performance is not worth it just to have a rim for headspace and ease of extraction. Not in the Encore action, anyway...because it simply doesn't "need" the rim.

If you want a rimmed 7mm case, I suggest the 7-30 Waters. I shoot one in my Contender and it drives 120gr bullets in excess of 2500fps, making it a legitimate 200 yard gun. The recoil is "there", but totally manageable for those used to shooting 357 or 44 mag revolvers. The 7mm-07 rimmed would be interesting, but even in a 15" barrel, the increased performance over the SAAMI standard 7-30 Waters would be just as questionable as any other wildcat...of which I own several. Heck, the way most people handload for single-shot pistols, most of the better cartridges are treated much like a wildcat round, anyway.

 

[big dan]

i would venture a guess that the difference in performance between the 307 & 308 in a 15" bbl. with both loaded to max pressure would amount to about zilch! doesn't it seem odd that all the wildcats you recommended for the encore are based on the same rimmed case? you speak with high regard of the 7-30 waters, it is my feeling that the 7/307 comes closer to it than the 7/08. both mike bellm & jd jones are fans of rimmed cases in both the encore and contender and i can see their logic, especially for cold weather hunting.

 

[broom_jm]

i would venture a guess that the difference in performance between the 307 & 308 in a 15" bbl. with both loaded to max pressure would amount to about zilch! doesn't it seem odd that all the wildcats you recommended for the encore are based on the same rimmed case? you speak with high regard of the 7-30 waters, it is my feeling that the 7/307 comes closer to it than the 7/08. both mike bellm & jd jones are fans of rimmed cases in both the encore and contender and i can see their logic, especially for cold weather hunting.

Well, see, big dan...you are "guessing" and I'm trying to explain the technical differences. The 307 case is NOT just a 308 case with a rim. If it were, you would be correct and it would be used as the basis for very popular single-shot pistol wildcats. Your misunderstanding about the 307 case, versus 308, is something I have not been able to overcome, so we'll just have to disagree on this one. (Have you wondered WHY Mike and JD didn't use the 307 case, but went with the 444 Marlin??)

I own and shoot a 7-30 Waters in a Contender and a 260 Remington, in an Encore (which is simply a 7mm-08 necked down another .020"). The Encore frame is capable of handling the higher pressure from the 308-based rounds, where the Contender is not. The 7-30 is about ideal for the pressure you can load a Contender to, whereas a 7mm-08 takes advantage of the stronger Encore frame to achieve higher muzzle velocity. A 15" barrel greatly facilitates that level of performance.

If someone were to use a 307 case, necked down to 7mm, it would be capable of better performance than a 7-30 Waters, but not by much. That is what I said in my last post. Put simply, a 307 necked down to 7mm is not capable of safely producing the same velocity as a 308 case, necked down. If YOU are not bothered by that loss of performance, have at it. For someone looking to get into their first single-shot pistol, I think it's a lousy idea.

 

[big dan]

i understand completely why they use the 444 case, it gives them more length to work with. as to the loss of performance, this fall i used a 7/08 with a 120gr ballistic tip at 2700 fps to take 2 mule deer... lets see now, your 7/30 pushes the 120gr bullet at 2500 and it is a very capable deer round, lets say that i lose 100fps of velocity by using the 307 case how does that make it a lousy idea? all i did was tell the guy to consider having his chamber reamed so that he could use the 307/444 rimmed brass if he chose too. i just had a thought, what if by some odd coincidence there is no velocity loss with the 307 brass? could happen...

i get the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing as there is no logic for your argument, so with that being said, i'm out. BTW, no hard feelings!

 

[big dan]

oh hey, how do you like the 260 in the encore? i found a bbl. and would like to try it as i've got a bunch of 6.5 stuff on hand... basically just need to pick up a set of dies. the 15" 260 barrels aren't very common so it's a little higher than i'd like to pay but its still cheaper than an aftermarket barrel. any thoughts?

 

[broom_jm]

i understand completely why they use the 444 case, it gives them more length to work with. as to the loss of performance, this fall i used a 7/08 with a 120gr ballistic tip at 2700 fps to take 2 mule deer... lets see now, your 7/30 pushes the 120gr bullet at 2500 and it is a very capable deer round, lets say that i lose 100fps of velocity by using the 307 case how does that make it a lousy idea? all i did was tell the guy to consider having his chamber reamed so that he could use the 307/444 rimmed brass if he chose too. i just had a thought, what if by some odd coincidence there is no velocity loss with the 307 brass? could happen...

i get the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing as there is no logic for your argument, so with that being said, i'm out. BTW, no hard feelings!

I'm just saying it would be an odd choice for a guy just getting started with an Encore, who doesn't even know yet if he's going to reload. I would expect a 7mm-07 to give velocity somewhere between a 7mm-08 and 7-30 Waters which, as you point out, is not a bad thing. But, if you're using the Encore frame, I'd prefer to just use the 7mm-08.

I like the 260 Remington, but to be honest, I find myself continuing to reach for the 6.5JDJ. I am comfortable with it and the accuracy is so good, I just haven't done much with the 260. I'm thinking about selling it and getting either a 309JDJ or one of the GNR cases based on the 405 Winchester.

 

[unclenick]

Not quite sure how we got OT onto the .307? The OP only asked about .308 and 7mm-08, as near as I can tell?

The powder thing boils down to choices. The combination that makes the bullet fastest in a 24" barrel will also make it fastest in a 14" barrel. Using a handgun, you may want to load down a little to mitigate muzzle blast and the rocket effect component of recoil (assuming you have no muzzle brake). In that case, using a faster powder run to the same peak pressure as the slow stuff will get you that reduced blast and recoil. But it will come at some expense in muzzle velocity.

It's a sad world where there is no free lunch, but it's the only world we've got.

So, what sort of ballistics are you looking for?