Shooters Forum banner

Do you intuitively trust (instead of knowing or believing) Quick Detach Mounts to Return to Zero?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 100.0%
  • Not Worried about it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't care, I'd never touch them

    Votes: 0 0.0%
21 - 40 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,971 Posts
Maybe I’m not keeping up with all that’s being said: When I switch scopes back and forth on the same gun I don’t take the scope out of the rings. I take the scope off the gun in the rings. Taking it out of the rings will add some changes, I haven’t seen much of that by simply removing the scope in the rings. Just my experience.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
This is where a known quantity BR rifle is handy as a test bed. If you can produce a .300 group +/-.050 every time, then different mounting systems can be tried and tested.
QD scopes are a cool factor and can work in the hunting field but not the varmint patch. I come by that by extensive experimentation.
"Repeatability" in scope mounting is not nearly as easy as you might imagine. A BR rifle puts a numerical figure on that repeatability. Put an old set of Swing-off or Pivot Weavers and try a group by simply unlatching the scope between shots. .3MOA can turn into 6MOA in two shots....but its close enough to kill a deer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sevastopol

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
38,092 Posts
What Jack said. Define the need and the products that will work, or will not, become obvious pretty quickly.

I've had scopes off and on with Weaver rails and Ruger integral mounts, and seems like the gun was always within an inch or so of expected point of impact. For what I use those guns for in the field, not a big deal if it was necesarry to remove the scope and put it back.

The vague and strange wording of the 'poll' seems designed to stir up confusion, more than answer any practical question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
My AR-180 with Armalite 2.5x scope miraculously returns to zero every darned time. I have confirmed that all the way out to 300m. I'm pretty impressed since that's all 1960's technology.

I have a LPVO on my FAL with modern mounts and picatinny rail, returns to zero every time.

Now when I say zero, these are both battle rifles, not benchrest target rifles. So if they're off my less than 1 MOA then its unlikely I would even notice...or care.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
693 Posts
I suppose I'm simple minded? When I get scopes or sights 'right', I don't fiddle with them. I don't benchrest either. I don't crank elevation up or down for different shots, I just hold over. Same for wind. I'm a bit surprised that torque values when removing and then replacing scopes wasn't really discussed? Full disclosure, I've only purchase one QD scope device, it is a Warne and placed on a CZ 457 Scout rifle .22 lr for my grandson, he wanted that capability, so, I did it. I told him, son, you start 'raccoon' fingering it and yer gonna have problems. As far as I know? He ain't touched it.

No offense to the OP, but this thread, at least to me, seems much ado about nuthin. :confused:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Lenard Brownell was a QD scope with back-up sights guy from the very beginning. Ruger scope rings is his invention but he made them terribly difficult to mount by making the rings split vertically. that was changed with the first batch of flat bolt 77s and #1s but the basic clamping of the rings remains the same. He griped about it but thought it was probably the best they could do with investment casting. The good thing about the Ruger system is that one ring and mount fits all recoil levels. They work on 22 Hornets and .416 Rigby's alike. Light and strong beats 100% repeatability.
I like and use Talley rings and bases because I know Dave Talley, remember his first vision for a business and support it.
The problem with Talley mounts, and all others, is they have to depend on the gun companies to keep dimensions the same. Most companies only polish the tops of actions. How much they're polished determines how close the scope will be when it's mounted.
Making custom mounts while ON the action takes all the error from scope mounting. Sit a brand new scope in a custom mount gun and the bullet hits within an inch at 100 yards of 'zero'. Then, you're free to make your final corrections.
I have little use for changing scopes and want them as much a part of the rifle as the barrel.
Conetrol rings are the lightest in the world, but all steel and will take all the recoil you want to give.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Pudfark

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
11,787 Posts
King Pike mounts are the only "quick detachable" mounts I've been around that will absolutely return to zero. My 39-06IMP (1917 Remington Enfield) had King Pike mounts on a Weaver K2.5 with a Varmintmaster 6X adapter. The trick was to take the scope off and put it in your coat to keep it dry and prevent fogging.

I've not experimented with taking scopes off and putting them back on to see if they hold zero on purpose.

RJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the aspect and effect of lapping in scope rings as relates to 'precision' when it comes to initial mounting, removal, and remounting the scope/ring combination. So, ?.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Lapping scope rings shows you how far off the mounts are from being perfectly straight. Lapping rings saves scope finishes mostly and a good thing to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Lapping scope rings shows you how far off the mounts are from being perfectly straight. Lapping rings saves scope finishes mostly and a good thing to do.
Exactly Jack, good on you for responding! When one thinks about it, fresh (new) rings get mounted to the receiver as the 'first step' in mounting (fitting?) the optical system, meaning the scope/ring combination. If the rings are not lapped in, (and lapping will show you just how far off the ring/receiver fit is) the scope will be stressed (bending the tube, so to speak) by whatever misalignment exists, since the bottom half of the rings are firmly tightened to the base before the scope and upper half of the rings are assembled. That process establishes a dimensional relationship to the entire rifle/scope/ring assembly. So, when the scope/ring assembly is removed (as an assembly), whether we call the rings QD or not, any temporary flexing of the scope relaxes. As minute as it may be, that relaxation changes the dimension between the two rings. That flexing can be measured with a dial indicator. Now, if you accept this premise, when you go to remount the scope/ring combo (depending on the ring to base design, Weaver, picatinny, etc.) to the bases that remained on the receiver (integral, like Ruger, or otherwise. That dimensional variance, however slight, will present itself and make it impossible (from a perfectly precision perspective) for the scope/ring combo to return to it's 'exact' previous position.
Again, minor differences that shouldn't matter much on a 'hunting rifle' (whatever that is?), but it could show up on the target in either, or both, POI shift or group size.
Okay guys, rip into me!

P.S. I'll add this as a 'side poll'....How many (percentage) 'average shooters' do you think lap in their scope rings?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
What percentage of gunsmiths?! ;)

"Stress" anywhere in a rifle-sight combo is detrimental to accuracy. Lapping scope rings goes a long way towards making mounting as stress free as possible. There are VERY few rifle receivers that are truly straight in all dimensions and any variation of dimensions affects how the scope mounts fit. 'Glass bedding' of scope mounts can correct them and some guns need it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Mounting scopes on guns that aren't quite right as a good place for a collimator. If you can change POI by loosening a ring screw, you KNOW something ain't right! A lapping bar tells you where it's not right. When the lapping bar is touching the rings evenly, it is right.

For those that don't know--- 'Lapping' the rings is NOT to remove the machine marks, its to mark the high places. What's not high is low. You want the high places to be evenly distributed in both rings. The lap doesn't straighten a bad mounting job, it just identifies it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
A skim coat of bedding compound on the lower half of the rings, with the scope (with ample 'release' agent!!) held in contact with surgical tubing can get you to the same end result without all the 'elbow movement'!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Glass bedding the scope tube is the sure cure for heavy recoiling rifles displacing heavy scopes. Just like drag slicks have the most traction, so does 100% contact scopes.
(I glass bed a piece of one inch hydraulic chrome shafting instead of the scope, though.)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
I cringe when I hear of eternity LocTite and impact screwdrivers to install scope mounts. The secret is in the fit, not the torque and concrete. Level two-piece mounts with each other and glass them straight (with release agent). Lap the rings when mounted to make sure they're straight and level. Clean everything really well, wipe on just enough oil to take the 'dusty' of the dry metal and carefully assemble. Crunching noises coming from the scope means you forgot to check something! :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,292 Posts
About 20yrs ago I realized those two piece ring and base sets were not a good idea for me, I change scopes around on guns to much. They look better than a Weaver rail but it's a hassle lapping and bedding rings. I really like the one piece ring base designed for AR's, skim coat the bottom ring one time and it can be moved to any other AR in a couple of minutes, usually on paper at 100yds. I put a rail on all my 700's, skim coat the two piece leupold rings on a scope and it can be moved to any other short action 700 or christensen arms.
 

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
11,787 Posts
Green Loctite, also known as "stud and bearing mount" can fill up to .015" gap. More than enough to make scope based fit tight against any action. Excess is wiped away with a paper towel or Qtip. In 24 hours it's as hard as steel but bases can be removed with a light tap from a rawhide mallet.

KISJ

Keep It Simple Jack

The steel Weaver bases on my 300RUM are still tight after over 600 rounds.

And yes, the mounting screws are also doped with green Loctite and easy to remove should you want to.

RJ
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Top