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RJ-- I found the Creedmore drawings, too. All I had to do was remember SAAMI segregates the metrics from the Imperials. SHA-Zam!
This is a 'new' caliber to me so I don't know. It sounds like somebody was running ammo in a hurry to take advantage of positive publicity and maybe forgot to not the "Subject to Change" note at the top.
 

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A factory load is loaded on mass-assembly equipment that the non-caring guy has little control over anyway. Manufacturing is great for making a lot of things the same. Thank goodness we don't have gunsmiths filing their own taps and screws anymore!
The drawbacks are that if something goes wrong, a LOT of wrong parts or products are made in a short length of time and sometimes it's hard to tell the good from the bad. Inspecting ammo has to be much easier than fig newtons for fly parts.

I've watched production reloading with checks and test performed 'on the fly'. From IR powder level measuring to body smoothness and concentricity, primer seat depth, bullet depth and crimp are inspected and rejects automatically kicked off the line at a rate hard to comprehend. Random samples were pulled apart or shot for data.
Exactly true and they must fit every chamber. Head space varies and the first thing to move is the primer, being punched back and then the brass expands to re-seat the primer. Tremendous force. The force from a flash hole is strong enough to make the hammer on a SA go near full cock with an over power hammer spring.
I run LP mag primers in revolvers with over 55,000 PSI and they look normal because the head space is tight. My .44 has a little more, so at 38,000 PSI, they get flat. I KNOW I am not over pressure. Each gun is different.
About mainsprings. A primer needs impact for accuracy in any gun. BR to a .38. Does not matter the make of primer. Fool with a hammer spring for trigger pull and you are sledding down a hill full of trees.
I shot IHMSA with my .44 and I would stop hitting so I bought Ruger hammer springs by the dozen and changed when accuracy went. I switched to Wolfe over power and it stopped. By the way my .44 loads ONLY use a Fed 150 with 296. Over 89,000 heavy loads with no wear or loss of accuracy.
I learned before I found an article in a book. The guy shot BR and had a very high end gun, $700 action alone. He shot bug holes and then it went array. He bought new brass and went through every step and it got worse. Then one day the back of the bolt dropped off. Turns out the firing pin was unscrewing. He tightened it and went back to a bug hole. He did not stop and recorded what each spring strength shot and made a graph. He could show what each reduction in spring power did.
But back to pressure. It is your gun so work is needed. I Have gone over book with care with no pressure signs. Only because accuracy increased. Some over max loads were slower then published. I never chase velocity, only accuracy.
 

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Wow, the amount of info is mind BLOWING. I've only started reloading last year. So I am devouring info like a squirrel likes nuts. Recently I picked up a Rem 721 in 30-06, I used Winchester 165g factory to test it out. then I reloaded them and tested those out. I happened to have a box of .308 Speer soft nose and used Winchester primers as my shop was out of CCI, and IMR4064 at 48g. (min 47 max 51)
I didn't see anything after inspecting the cases, and it was accurate. But a couple of the primers pushed back, so they would stick out of the case. About 6 of the 20 I reloaded. I'm using an RCBS Powder measure and I weigh the powder as well. The factory loads worked perfectly. According to the powder specs on the powder and in my manuals I should have a medium load. Could it be that CCI primers are better? It did feel like a few went in easier with the hand primer.
I like the powder, though extruded powder is bulky.
All was once fire Win brass, win primers, and same powder. My scales are mechanical.
 

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The Shadow (Super Mod)
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According to the powder specs on the powder and in my manuals I should have a medium load.
There are no listed "Powder specs". No manual since the old and now defunct A-Squared manual lists lot numbers tested, or dates tested. Also there are manufacturers that re-build plants, and change ownership. With no listed nominal specs, all you have to go by is the caution that powder lots can vary by 10%. So depending upon many things, including your storage and age of powder; your burning rate may not be what was tested in the manual that you are going by. The standard is SAAMI Min spec bore/groove pressure barrels in a min spec universal receiver, that is not a mass produced rifle either.

The take home is that anytime you exceed EITHER: A) Book max charge. OR B) Book max velocity. You have exceeded book max pressure.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Primers sticking out means it is a low pressure load.
 

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Plus 1 to MikeG---

Low pressure sign is protruding primers AND, those cases are now too short and should be destroyed. If you lost track of them, purchase a case gauge to find them, otherwise they will give VERY high pressure signs from excess headspace.
 

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I had an old Winchester 1894 with a very pitted chamber that when fired cases were ejected had primers sticking out pretty far. I cleaned and lightly polished the chamber and the problem went away. I assumed the rough chamber may have caused the problem. Is that a possible cause of the primer problem, or do you think it was low pressure loads? Just curious. It was a 32 special and the handloads were in the middle of the powder range listed in Speer #9

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In rimmed cases, the protruding primer indicates excess headspace. NOT necessarily dangerous excess, but since HS is the thickness of the rim and the primer is protruding, it means there is space in excess of the rim dimension.
RIMLESS cases with protruding primers means there is excess space between the bolt face and datum line in the shoulder.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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A rough chamber can prevent the case from setting back against the bolt in a normal fashion. There isn't much chambered in the 1894 that would be considered a 'high pressure' round. I have seen (slightly) protruding primers in my Marlin 336 with factory .30-30 ammo.
 

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Another thing UN makes clear, primers are no indication. Expansion of the pressure ring needs measured or a real strain gauge used. Even CUP was not perfect but held on
Darkker makes good points. But so does kdub so a round must fit and chamber.
In my opinion working a full grain at a time is too much even with a big bore rifle. You can miss a SWEET spot. Some rifles I have had needed a tad over max book to come in but no signs of pressure. Hard bolt lift should scare you. Books give OAL that might change things and all bullets are different.
 

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Reading this thread I see JBelk talking about the case being too short and should be discarded. When I trim cases i invariably have a case or two that seems to not seat well in the trimmer and ends up shorter than the rest. Those I have been setting aside to use as foulers. How much short is too short?
 

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How much short is too short?
It depends on the caliber and where you're measuring. A 'trimmer' can only shorten overall length (AOL). That makes
little difference unless the caliber headspaces on the mouth of the case.

"Rimless" calibers that headspace on the shoulder datum cannot be less that about .007 shorter in that datum length than the rifle. Rimless cases with protruding primers ARE, by definition, too short in the headspace dimension. The amount of the primer protrusion is the amount of excess.

Without knowing what caliber you're loading I can't be more specific.
 

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A case that is too long can also cause over pressure by neck being forced into the the throat, "crimping" the neck into the bullet. That's why we must trim.

Having a case or two that are too short in the neck is not cause for concern other than your trimming technique or set-up. Too short of a case neck is like a bad hair cut, it will grow out eventually :D

Even cases with protruding primers (from say a low pressure load or even a chamber that's .008" over :eek:) are salvageable. If you don't have too rough a chamber or some other deformity, anneal that case (or cases) load (with no shoulder set back) and fire again and chances are pretty good that the primer won't be protruding. Why? Because now the case is fireformed to YOUR chamber. You don't absolutely need to set the shoulder back ever again with normal loading.

Here's my example:

I reload for three (3) different 223's. A 788 rechambered to .233 from .222 (sacrilege I know, but it wasn't done by me) a factory .223 in 788 and a factory chambered .223 700SPS. All .223's on the outside, but as different as night and day on the inside. Here's what I'm getting at, rounds fired in the first mentioned rifle WILL NOT chamber in either of the other two, rounds fired in #2 will chamber in #1 but not #3 and rounds fired in #3 will fit both #1 and #2. Also rounds loaded for #3 will have protruding primers if shot in #1. That does not mean #1 has too much head space or that #3 has to little head space or that #3's load is too low pressure. Should I destroy the brass for #3 since it was fired in #1 :eek :eek:

NO ! !

:confused: :confused:

Confused yet? Don't be, because they all shoot different loads too. :eek: You see, I treat them like they are three separate calibers. #1 shoots WW brass, #2 shoots R-P brass and #3 shoots R-P nickel. #1 gets CCI's, #3 gets Federal and picky little snot #2 HASTA shoot Remington benchrest primers.

Where am I going with this?

Brass shot in a chamber that has too much headspace is salvageable. Believe it. Brass lives matter.

A rifle that is KNOWN to have too much headspace is shootable with properly fireformed loads. Don't think of that rifle as having too much headspace, think of it as a wildcat!

RJ
 

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Discussion Starter #134
Too short depends on purpose for its definition.

When the M14/M1A platform was king of the hill at the National Matches, it was common practice to dispose of LC brass after five loadings (the original loading + 4 reloads). Full length resizing was done to ensure smooth feed during rapid fire, so that practice and hard extraction caused many guns to produce detectable pressure ring thinning in that many load cycles. The NMC doesn't allow for alibi strings and nobody wants sharp-edged case heads being ejected and flying around, so these cases were retired and contemporary prudence said not to risk trying to get any more out of them. Given that short case life and that many cases grew as much as 0.010" in one firing, a number of competitors would trim their cases to 1.975", or -0.020" below SAAMI minimum and -0.025" below 7.62 NATO minimum, after the first resizing with the idea they would then never have to trim that case again before they retired it. I am unaware of there being any issues with this practice because nobody crimped match bullets.

If you crimp, you need your case lengths more tightly controlled. I once fired a bulk lot of 1000 pieces of Winchester .45 Auto brass through 50 reloadings of light target loads. At the end of the experiment only about a quarter of the cases remained, the rest having split or been sacrificed to the range gods, but those that survived were all uniformly 0.025" shorter than when they were new, and I'd had to turn my taper crimp die down to accommodate them. At each firing these low-pressure loads backed up in the chamber and expanded outward, becoming shorter and fatter. Resizing would restore the diameter by extruding the fat case out longer, but it always fell short of full recovery of length by about half a thousandth of an inch.

I would expect the same for a 45-70 case shortened by low pressure. It would become shorter but the straight sides should come back close to full length after resizing. Shortness is acceptable as long as you adjust your crimp for it and it causes no problem with magazine feed. The intentionally short cases made by Hornady for the FTX bullets can cause some headaches if the shooter doesn't notice them or is running hot loads and fails to reduce powder charge for the shortened powder space when seating a standard bullet in one of them.
 
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Im loading for .222, .257 Roberts/ and 30.06. Usually when i screw up and get it too short it amounts to 0.020 to 0.025. Thanks for your responses.
 

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So, you're talking about trimming the case shorter than 'normal'. .025 is no problem at all.
The same amount of excess headspace could let the magic smoke out. :eek: :eek:

Brass will stretch out, be pushed back and stretch out again just so many times and then it pulls in half. A case can be stretched once out past .020 in most calibers, but case life is short to very short. Case life is longest when it's asked to do little work. ;) Should be a lesson there somewhere!
 

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I never had the problem of primer's sticking out that I remember. Generally low pressure gave me smoked case's, in rifle's. I would think that if this problem happened, save the case's and load some min loads in them with the bullet touching the lands. Seem's that that is/was used to to blow out standard case's to Ackley's. The bullet holds the case back against the bolt face on ignition. In my rifle loads, actually cast bullet loads, the case turning black showed the pressure was low enough that the case didn't expand to seal the chamber. Up the load a bit and refire the case's just as they were has always worked for me.
 

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save the case's and load some min loads in them with the bullet touching the lands.
NO MINIMUM loads for fire-forming. That's where the trouble starts. Follow Ackley's instructions! Fireforming is done at factory pressure levels or slightly above, never below. Low pressure loads is where the backed-out primers come from.

IT IS acceptable to use the bullet to headspace on. No measuring needed, either. Just seat long and the re-seat with the bolt. The danger is having ammo 'sitting around' with improper headspace for the headstamps. :eek: As long as they're loaded and fired everything is good, don't leave a box for the estate sale!

Ackley's instructions have been ignored for MANY years by gunsmiths that should know better. "Run a reamer in to make it an AI." IS NOT the way it's supposed to be done. So an estimated 90% of factory rifles made 'improved' automatically have excess headspace because factory headspace is already too long to be 'Ackley approved improved'. He said MINUS .003 to .008, not plus. To do that on a factory rifle, the barrel has to be set back and then the chamber made right by being made a hair short.
In reality, gunsmiths set their own 'standard' for setting back barrels. If a factory rifle is only plus .003 it means NEW cases will have about .005 excess HS but cases fireformed in the old chamber will be zero HS when fired in the new chamber, IF the GS hits it just right.
Any owner of an improved chamber rifle should know how to check cartridge headspace against the rifle's headspace. Don't shoot ammo that is more than .006 (two layers of sticky note or masking tape) 'short' of the rifle's chamber no matter what any other 'gauge' might indicate. It is the AMMO gauge that saves eyeballs and doesn't beat up actions just for fun. A little 'feel' on bolt closure is a good thing on the fireforming rounds.
 

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Wow, the amount of info is mind BLOWING. I've only started reloading last year. So I am devouring info like a squirrel likes nuts. Recently I picked up a Rem 721 in 30-06, I used Winchester 165g factory to test it out. then I reloaded them and tested those out. I happened to have a box of .308 Speer soft nose and used Winchester primers as my shop was out of CCI, and IMR4064 at 48g. (min 47 max 51)
I didn't see anything after inspecting the cases, and it was accurate. But a couple of the primers pushed back, so they would stick out of the case. About 6 of the 20 I reloaded. I'm using an RCBS Powder measure and I weigh the powder as well. The factory loads worked perfectly. According to the powder specs on the powder and in my manuals I should have a medium load. Could it be that CCI primers are better? It did feel like a few went in easier with the hand primer.
I like the powder, though extruded powder is bulky.
All was once fire Win brass, win primers, and same powder. My scales are mechanical.
Primers are almost all the same today. Any load too light will push out the primer and brass will not expand back to reseat them. Rough chambers will not let brass flow. Fed primers are said to be soft but they are all I use. It is not true and I have taken Fed LP 150's to max and over with up to the .500 S&W. The 155 is more accurate from the .475 and up. Shoot the CCI 300 and the Fed 150 and there is no difference at all. Same for rifle primers. WW are fine too. If primers back out and brass is dirty you load too light.
 
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