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Buds has them for $365. Are these worth owning? I want a 44 mag with a 24" barrel. Only one I can find in a lever gun.
Puma Octagon 24" 44 mag
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Mr. Cool,
My shooting buddy and I both have the Puma 92 with 24 inch octagonal barrels, but in 45 Colt. We always have a good time shooting with them. My buddy Mike, who's pretty good, can keep a group of about five inches at 200 yards across a rest. No problems at this point!
My shooting buddy and I both have the Puma 92 with 24 inch octagonal barrels, but in 45 Colt. We always have a good time shooting with them. My buddy Mike, who's pretty good, can keep a group of about five inches at 200 yards across a rest. No problems at this point!
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I've got a 454 casull already. so see no need for a 45 colt. But I like the 44 mag. I already have one of those in Marlin 20" barrel. Wondering if the extra 4" of barrel will net about 100 fps?
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I've a blue one, Really nice gun, I mounted a Marble tang sight on it.
Just one problem with the .44mag (not only mine), the barrel is overbore (.432), with small groove (.429 diameter at the top of the grooves!) That means that in order to do good shots, you have to use big bullets (.434) and hard alloy. One of my buddy got one, but reloaded only with JSP bullets and it was hard for him to touch the target at 50m.! He sold it.
Another special feature with the .44mag: the switch rate is very slow: 30"! So, if you want to shot heavy bullets at long range, forget it! 300gr or more is OK at 50m, 240gr is just OK at 100m and I think the best is 200gr bullets for a good stabilization.
So, for the price it is a good carabine, but you need to have an important technical level in reloading and casting bullets in order to get good results, otherwise you will be desappointed.
The .45LC or .44-40 versions are maybe easier to manage.
Just one problem with the .44mag (not only mine), the barrel is overbore (.432), with small groove (.429 diameter at the top of the grooves!) That means that in order to do good shots, you have to use big bullets (.434) and hard alloy. One of my buddy got one, but reloaded only with JSP bullets and it was hard for him to touch the target at 50m.! He sold it.
Another special feature with the .44mag: the switch rate is very slow: 30"! So, if you want to shot heavy bullets at long range, forget it! 300gr or more is OK at 50m, 240gr is just OK at 100m and I think the best is 200gr bullets for a good stabilization.
So, for the price it is a good carabine, but you need to have an important technical level in reloading and casting bullets in order to get good results, otherwise you will be desappointed.
The .45LC or .44-40 versions are maybe easier to manage.
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I am shooting 310 grain cast bullets out of my marlin and they shoot well. A little disappointing to hear that it wont stabilize heavier bullets at longer ranges. That to me is the point of a longer barrel.
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Your Marlin has a 20" switch rate barrel, and that makes a big difference!
When you shoot a .310gr bullet (I use the Lee mold), the bullet is slower, so: slower speed, and slow rotation speed, that don't give good results at long distance!
I think that the Rossi 24" is really good for fun shooting, pin shooting, CAS, deer hunting at short range, but if you want to shoot at 100m or longer, it is better to choose for instance a Marlin, an Armi Sport(http://www.armisport.com/eng/menuAS.asp), or a Contender......
Personnaly, with it I make a lot of target shooting at 50m, gong shooting at 25m, and maybe one day roe deer hunting.
When you shoot a .310gr bullet (I use the Lee mold), the bullet is slower, so: slower speed, and slow rotation speed, that don't give good results at long distance!
I think that the Rossi 24" is really good for fun shooting, pin shooting, CAS, deer hunting at short range, but if you want to shoot at 100m or longer, it is better to choose for instance a Marlin, an Armi Sport(http://www.armisport.com/eng/menuAS.asp), or a Contender......
Personnaly, with it I make a lot of target shooting at 50m, gong shooting at 25m, and maybe one day roe deer hunting.
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For what it's worth, I've a 20" barrel Browning B92 in .44 Mag. Using the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo in 225 gr. FTX, has made a big difference in how well this rifle shoots. These rounds are a bit on the expensive side but worth it it terms of improvement downrange.
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584 Posts
I've checked and there seems to be no such animal as the 'switch rate barrel' you claim a Marlin has. If you are implying that the Marlin's barrel has the ability to change the spin rate of the bullet, then you are claiming something outside the laws of physics. In a perfect condition, the bullet's rotation in all rifled barrels is dictated by the rifling which is fixed, i.e. 1:20 (which means 1 revolution per every 20" traveled) no matter how fast the bullet is traveling.
Now, as to your comments that the Rossis are not suitable to shoot as far as 100m while a Marlin would be is another case of your ignorance of the platforms. While both rifles are suitable for approximately the same range depending up the barrel length, ammo selection, sighting method, and shooter's abilities, the Marlin could be less accurate if it has 'Micro-grove' rifling instead of 'Ballard' type rifling as it has been shown to be generally less accurate with the heavier weight bullets.
I own two 357mag Rossis, a 24" oct bbl rifle and a 20" rd bbl carbine. I have a tang sight on the rifle and even with my old, tired eyes, I can hit our 8" steel plates at 175yds with ease with it. That's primarily because the small aperture in the tang sight increases my Depth of Field allowing me to see the front sight and the target quite clearly.
My 20" carbine is just as accurate but because I use a semi-buckhorn rear and larger dia bead on the front sight, I'm less accurate with it at that range solely because of my inability to sight it precisely.
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156 Posts
Puma website sez,
.417 grove and .429 bore and 20" twist. Does not show a difference in the 24 vs 20" barrel.
.417 grove and .429 bore and 20" twist. Does not show a difference in the 24 vs 20" barrel.
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These numbers do not jive with Lafayette's experience with the gun. Hummmmmmmm. Seems like it should shoot 300 grain bullets just fine based on the advertised specs. Same twist as my Marlin microgroove. Theoretically, it should shoot faster and more accurately...longer sight radius and longer barrel for more velocity.
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Hi Steve,
maybe I not explained correctly (in english it's more difficult for me). What I would say is simply that with a 1:30 switch rate the rotation speed is slower than with a 1:20 so the stabilization of the bullet is poorer.
Even if the greenhill formula shows that a .310gr bullet can be stabilize with a 1:30, the experience shows that it is OK at 50meters, but at 100m, it is not so good.
And I 'm convinced that the 1:20" barrel will give better results.
Now, I heard that the new Rossi production will be done with 20" barrel which is a good new. But is it true? From which serial number? The problem with Rossi is that it is really difficult to get technical informations from them...
I've no experience with the .357mag version, so I can't tel anything.
The real facts I can give you is that my Rossi 24" octo (bought in 2009) has the following features:
- 30" swich rate barrel
- .429" groove, .432" bore (almost .4235")
- results at 50m are really good (can be less than 1"x1" group), with .434 bullets
- results at 100m are bad (3"x4" the best I can get).
So, for me this gun will be used for:
- target at 50m
- gong shooting at 25m
Now, if somebody has a recipe to shoot 2"x2" group at 100meters with this gun, I'm really really interested!!!!!!
maybe I not explained correctly (in english it's more difficult for me). What I would say is simply that with a 1:30 switch rate the rotation speed is slower than with a 1:20 so the stabilization of the bullet is poorer.
Even if the greenhill formula shows that a .310gr bullet can be stabilize with a 1:30, the experience shows that it is OK at 50meters, but at 100m, it is not so good.
And I 'm convinced that the 1:20" barrel will give better results.
Now, I heard that the new Rossi production will be done with 20" barrel which is a good new. But is it true? From which serial number? The problem with Rossi is that it is really difficult to get technical informations from them...
I've no experience with the .357mag version, so I can't tel anything.
The real facts I can give you is that my Rossi 24" octo (bought in 2009) has the following features:
- 30" swich rate barrel
- .429" groove, .432" bore (almost .4235")
- results at 50m are really good (can be less than 1"x1" group), with .434 bullets
- results at 100m are bad (3"x4" the best I can get).
So, for me this gun will be used for:
- target at 50m
- gong shooting at 25m
Now, if somebody has a recipe to shoot 2"x2" group at 100meters with this gun, I'm really really interested!!!!!!
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156 Posts
The key seems to be whether the gun is made by Chiappa or not. The specs at Puma's web site are based on the Italian made Chiappa guns. My best guess that the under $400 model at Buds is the older version. Dont know how you would find out??
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584 Posts
Sorry, my mistake not realizing that French is your primary language. I understand that the early Rossi 44mags had too large a barrel bore, causing the issues you described. I thought that the more recent 44mags had properly sized barrels and faster rifling twist rates.
Could someone chime in to confirm, correct my understandings, please?
Could someone chime in to confirm, correct my understandings, please?
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156 Posts
Did some more research...It appear that the Rossi models were 1/30. So I doubt you will find a screamin deal on one of the new ones.
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FWIW - I'm pretty sure Lafayette's "switch rate" = TWIST RATE.
[If you are implying that the Marlin's barrel has the ability to change the spin rate of the bullet, then you are claiming something outside the laws of physics. In a perfect condition, the bullet's rotation in all rifled barrels is dictated by the rifling which is fixed, i.e. 1:20 (which means 1 revolution per every 20" traveled) no matter how fast the bullet is traveling.]
Have you ever heard of "gain twist" or progressive rifling ? Famed barrel makers like Harry Pope and Dan Lilja have.
"Rifling is described by its twist rate, which indicates the distance the bullet must travel to complete one full revolution, such as "1 turn in 10 inches" (1:10 inches), or "1 turn in 30 inches".
A combination of the weight, length and shape of a projectile determines the twist rate needed to stabilize it – barrels intended for short, large-diameter projectiles like spherical lead balls require a very low twist rate, such as 1 turn in 48 inches (122 cm).[1]
Barrels intended for long, small-diameter bullets, such as the ultra-low-drag, 80-grain 0.223 inch bullets (5.2 g, 5.56 mm), use twist rates of 1 turn in 8 inches (20 cm) or faster.[2]
In some cases, rifling will have twist rates that increases down the length of the barrel, called a gain twist or progressive twist; a twist rate that decreases from breech to muzzle is undesirable[, as it cannot reliably stabilize the bullet as it travels down the bore."
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/boyer-succeeds-with-bartlein-gain-twist-barrel/
.
[If you are implying that the Marlin's barrel has the ability to change the spin rate of the bullet, then you are claiming something outside the laws of physics. In a perfect condition, the bullet's rotation in all rifled barrels is dictated by the rifling which is fixed, i.e. 1:20 (which means 1 revolution per every 20" traveled) no matter how fast the bullet is traveling.]
Have you ever heard of "gain twist" or progressive rifling ? Famed barrel makers like Harry Pope and Dan Lilja have.
"Rifling is described by its twist rate, which indicates the distance the bullet must travel to complete one full revolution, such as "1 turn in 10 inches" (1:10 inches), or "1 turn in 30 inches".
A combination of the weight, length and shape of a projectile determines the twist rate needed to stabilize it – barrels intended for short, large-diameter projectiles like spherical lead balls require a very low twist rate, such as 1 turn in 48 inches (122 cm).[1]
Barrels intended for long, small-diameter bullets, such as the ultra-low-drag, 80-grain 0.223 inch bullets (5.2 g, 5.56 mm), use twist rates of 1 turn in 8 inches (20 cm) or faster.[2]
In some cases, rifling will have twist rates that increases down the length of the barrel, called a gain twist or progressive twist; a twist rate that decreases from breech to muzzle is undesirable[, as it cannot reliably stabilize the bullet as it travels down the bore."
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/boyer-succeeds-with-bartlein-gain-twist-barrel/
.
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140 Posts
Oops sorry, it's indeed twist rate...
My gunsmith has one from Chiappa (Armi Sport is the same brand). The price is not the same! In France a Rossi is 500€, a Chiappa is 750€... But for sure the quality is better, the aspect is better (wood...) and the barrel is better also.
So, if you can, buy a Chiappa (but I'm not sure that they do .44mag version, see at: http://www.armisport.com/). If you don't want to put to much money on it, the Rossi is not so bad...
My gunsmith has one from Chiappa (Armi Sport is the same brand). The price is not the same! In France a Rossi is 500€, a Chiappa is 750€... But for sure the quality is better, the aspect is better (wood...) and the barrel is better also.
So, if you can, buy a Chiappa (but I'm not sure that they do .44mag version, see at: http://www.armisport.com/). If you don't want to put to much money on it, the Rossi is not so bad...
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