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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a headspace question.

After firing .308 cases that had been "full length sized" and testing them on the mic, they come up an average of -.003. (This is an average of 15 that were measured). So .003 below "factory specs" for .308.

However, when I measured fired cases that were from loads that were not full length sized (base sized), the headspace average was -.0015 below factory/industry specs.

I would have thought the headspace on fire formed cases would measure the same regardless of whether or not the load was a FL sized load or a neck/base sized load. I am confused. What gives and what is the true headspace of my bore compared to factory/industry specs?

BTW, these were medium loads if that matters (41.5 gr IMR 3031 and 150 grain Hornady SSTs and 150 FMJ-BTs). All were from twice fired Win brass.
 

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In a phenomenon I do not truly understand, some cases actually shrink a tiny bit, during the firing/resizing/reloading process, resulting in fired and reloaded cases that are shorter than the original, virgin brass. Maybe Nick will be along to explain it better than I can.
 

· The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Interesting....

As a side note, I would not put absolute faith in the PM as far as measuring "headspace." Sort of like the man that only owns one watch.... he'll never wonder if it's right? If you can check your PM against a headspace gage then you can get an idea of how close it is. This all came to mind when I checked a headspace gage against two PMs that should measure identical, and none of the three agreed.

The PM is very useful for setting up resizing dies though.
 

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Headspace relates to the chamber and is proper for a gunsmith to worrry about. But, to a knowledgable hand loader it makes no difference at all because we can adjust our size die to tightly match the chamber. The Precision Case Mic helps us do that as well as anything else on the market.

"Excess" head space is potentially hazardous ONLY if the cartridge head-to-shoulder length is too long and the case has to stretch too much. Even with a slightly sloppy fit, the cases can eventually stretch too much and seperate BUT if the cases fit the chamber snuggly they will last a long time no matter what the actual headspace is.

Use your gage to achieve the correct fit and forget trying to make the "zero" mark line up with the shoulder thimble, it just doesn't matter.

Cases will stretch out and spring back a bit unevenly both from firing and resizing. Measure the shoulder length of a dozen or more fired cases and note the longest. Then adjust your sizer so the longest resized shoulder lenght matches the noted fired length and all of the rest will then fit your chamber. You DO NOT need to set the shoulders back from the longest fired lengths, those cases have already shrunk back a thou or so.

If you measure a few dozen cases as you work you will learn that shoulder length after sizing will vary a bit. That's mostly due to how inconsistantly you operate the press lever AND the type and amount of case lube you use! Plus, some cases simply respond to sizing differently, cases are not as precise as I used to think.
 

· The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Giving the matter some further thought, it seems you are just getting some different amounts of springback due to different sizing methods. That does seem entirely reasonable to me. Brass starts out a different size, and so it ends up a different size?

Now, if they were max loads, then I would expect them to fit the chamber better. But even then there is some tolerance among individual cases, as you are finding.
 

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Bird Dog II,

Mike called it. My PM for .308 reads about 0.002" off on the high side, so your's could do it on the low side just as easily. Get a good quality .308 GO gauge from Dave Manson or Clymer or Pacific or JGS, and use that to get the zero (I've got a set of inexpensive Forsters that Midway sells, but they are no more accurate than the PM, being off by as much as 0.002", so I recommend the more expensive brands). Zero should be equal to that minimum chamber length that the GO gauge represents, so measuring the GO gauge will give you an offset to add or subtract from your readings to correct them. SAAMI's spec for new brass allows for up to 0.004" interference fit, + 0.000/-0.007", so 0.003" under the GO gauge's length would be the lower limit (the interference fit is possible due to the chamber being wider than the cartridge, so the cartridge can swell, but I know of no brand of brass made that long).

Your reference to "base sized" makes it sounds like you may be thinking standard full length sizing dies and small base full length sizing are the same. They're not the same size. The small base style is smaller than the standard style, usually both in shoulder length and base diameter (hence the name). So let's go through the differences and why they exist:

In general, the problem with brass is elasticity. It springs back some from each stretching event, within short limits it does so in proportion to how much its size is being changed, but it never springs back completely. For example, you have to fire a neck-sized case a number of times before it really starts to get snug in the barrel, so new brass fired just once in your chamber is not as close to chamber size as four times neck-sized and fired brass is. I usually figure headspace taken off a new case fired once in your gun is around 0.001" smaller than the actual chamber headspace.

Different brands of brass have different degrees of work hardening imposed during forming and therefore are not equally springy. They can also have different degrees of shoulder and neck stress relieving (neck "annealing"). Therefore they can be resized with greater or lesser ease. This presents a problem for the FL sizing die designer. What size does the die need to be to return the case to its original size? Or do you even want to return it all the way to original size? Might it not be better just to make it enough smaller to feed into the same chamber from a magazine?

Different designers seem to have different ideas about those issues, so different die brands have somewhat different sizes. Board member Humpy says he's got dozens of dies ground to slightly different lengths so he can adapt to different brass and different chambers more precisely. That's more trouble and expense than most of us are willing to go to, but it illustrates the principle of what's required for exact results. Fortunately, most guns don't require that.

In general, any standard FL sizing die will size a case small enough to feed into the chamber it was originally fired in. That is, it will reduce the length at least a couple of thousandths, which is usually considered good enough for magazine feeding, and the diameter at least one thousandth. In reality, unless your chamber is very tight, a standard die will usually resize it more than that if your chamber dimensions are generous.

If you start with brass that was fired in a chamber larger than your own, the standard die often won't squeeze it hard enough. This is common with once-fired military brass. It was fired in a NATO spec chamber. These are both a little longer and wider than commercial chambers. As a result, the spring-back of the once-fired military brass coming out of a standard FL sizing die is not uncommonly too great for a case feed into a SAAMI spec chamber.

In those instances, you buy the small base sizing die. These are typically a couple thousandths shorter and a thousandth or two narrower than a standard sizing die. That is normally enough additional sizing to get the big brass down to commercial chamber size. Once that has been done and the brass is reloaded and fired in your chamber, then a standard sizing die will usually size it enough thereafter, because sizing is no longer starting out quite so big.

Once in awhile you find a gun that requires extra narrow cases to feed properly or that extracts so hard it stretches the brass in addition to chamber fireforming. This is usually just an issue in self-loaders. The brass for these particular guns can require the use of the small base die every time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Use your gage to achieve the correct fit and forget trying to make the "zero" mark line up with the shoulder thimble, it just doesn't matter.
Yes I knew that going in. What I am trying to do is get the correct setting for my dies.

Nick - What I meant by "base sizing" may have been poorly worded. What I meant is that on the batch that I did not FL size, I backed off the FL die a bit and checked the cases in the go/no-go gauge, eyeballing it such that the shoulders are slighting forward compared to the full length setting, but still within the gauge's tolerance reading and checking to ensure they chamber snuggly, but not overly so. This seemed a little more hap hazard than I prefer, so I bought the PM to get more exact numbers. (I have owned one in .30-06 for a while and know my die setting there).

The confusing part is the fact that cases fired from these "less than FL sized" loads had a headspace reading of -.0015, while the cases fired from FL sized cases averaged -.003. To give you a reference, FL sizing per the instructions from the Lee dies results in a -.0045 reading.

I understand that brass expands and then contracts in the chamber upon firing. Are the FL sized cases (the -.0045 ones) simply "springing back" more than the ones that are fitting the bore snug? Is this normal? Would a hotter load reduce this somewhat?
 

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Bird Dog II,

Got it. Yes, the brass does spring back more when it starts smaller. As I mentioned, neck-sized-only cases get tighter with each firing, and it's for the same reason. Eventually, neck-sized cases can get too tight to fit back in and will need a run through the FL sizer or a body die before they will go back into the chamber and neck-sizing-only can subsequently be resumed.
 
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