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John Wallace,
Have you considered doing the reforming of the .22 hornet in several stages using smaller steps to get from the .296" base diameter down to the .22 CCM base diameter?

I know I can use a Lee Carbide .25ACP and a RCBS Pocket Swage Tool to get the Hornet down to .276" to .278" base diameter, with a small formed roll of displaced brass formed into a radius fillet ahead of the rim. This is done in an RCBS "O" type 'JR-3' reloading press.

Perhaps this could be an intermediate step toward the .22 CCM base size?

Even with the added amount of work hardening, I would think the cases would last a reasonable number of reloadings if the loads were kept within reason for the purpose intended. I believe the OP wants a reloadable equivalent to the 22LR to hunt small game "Pot Meat", not to make 'red mist clouds' of the game.

Machining cases from drawn (work hardened) Brass Rod is definitely a viable method, especially if the case mouths are annealed after machining.

If one of the commercial die makers would agree to make a series of forming dies to take the Hornet to CCM dimensions it would be even better for the user, but perhaps a home machinist could come up with the same series of dies over time and at a lower cost.

I believe the possibility is there for a successful project if someone is interested.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Wow, guys thanks for all the responses...I have a lot of thinking to do. I really wanted something that would save alot of powder thus small like .22 lr but reloadable. I am not financially ready to do the whole wildcat thing yet. However, I think I will eventually just to try it. But until then I will probably make due with a reduced load in my .223 (Trail Boss) and probably in the near future look into a Hornet.
 

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You're not giving us much information to work with here other than the sub .23.

What kind of firearm do you want? Pistol, single shot, multi shot magazine, semi auto? I'm assuming a rifle.

Would the PA prohibition of semi automatics for hunting apply?

Do you hand load or are you willing to start for this project?

What's your budget? Do you want an off the shelf solution or are you willing to build something?

Without more information I can only echo what's been suggested by the people not STUPID enough to suggest ILLEGAL greater than .23 cartridges.

A .22 Hornet or something based on that case is the cheapest and easiest solution.

Savage offers their model 25 Walking Varminter in .17 and .22 Hornet with MSRPs from $600 to $775. You can probably lop $around $150 off that googling.


If you want something more complex, let us know. I'm sure we can turn this into a multi $1000 project. :)



Does anyone know of a reloadable cartridge close in caliber to .22? I know there is nothing factory and it would have a be a wildcat of some kind, which I am very unfamiliar. PA has a dumb rule that you may not use any caliber larger than .23 to hunt small game and I would like to reload for my small game hunting (why, just because). I would not be pushing the bullet very fast as it would be for edible game so I don't need a large case. At this point, the best I can come up with is downloading the .223 but that is a lot of powder or empty space in the case. Either way I would like something smaller...any ideas? Thanks!
 

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Most people that have been on internet forums for a while understand that threads tend to wander. In other words, folks having a pleasant conversation about guns and cartridges that might not be directly related to the original question.

In the second place, it is illegal in the state of Georgia to squirrel hunt with a .25 acp; it is, however, legal to deer hunt with one so long as it has an expanding bullet. I take such things as suggestions more than hard and fast rules. Your mileage may vary and I would never encourage anyone to break the law. That would be stupid.
 

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Still sticking with the OP's request for a cartridge caliber no bigger than .22: FN 5.7x28. I think there's only one firearm (FN PS90 semi-auto), but it would be interesting to chamber a Handi-Rifle or TC in that caliber.

And then try to find the ammo..... :rolleyes:
I'm with you on the 5.7X28 -- I've been shooting it for a while but my ammo is all reloads. I never shot any commercial ammo. I wanted a plinker type round that was not that expensive and so I shoot the Lyman 225462 bullet with 6.5gr of Lil' Gun and small rifle magnum primers (the only primers I had so I don't know how it would work with standard primers) -- this is not a load to be used in any FN firearms or things like the AR57 -- they are blowback and I have no idea what would happen. I have a custom made gas operated AR-15 and these rounds shoot great at 50 yards. The "once fired" brass can be picked up cheap and is available now. The dies I use are Lee and the cost is cheap. The brass is all milspec so the primer pockets need to have the crimp removed. I believe Thompson Contender makes a barrel chambered in the 5.7X28. I will say that as a plinker the round has worked great for me every shot -- BUT, when I loaded it hot with copper jacketed bullets the primer pockets opened up and I could not use them. There are very few if any real rifles made in the 5.7X28 and it would be hard to ignore the 22 hornet.

As far as be something like a reloadable 22lr I would think you could make what ever you wanted out of the 5.7X28. I was actually surprised I could shoot those 225462 bullets with such a light load of Lil' Gun and get the gas system on the AR to work but it did. In a single shot you could go even lighter on the powder and use a bullet that fit your needs.
 

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You can load a 22 Hornet down pretty far, quite a bit slower than a 223. In fact, a 22 Hornet with Trailboss and a 50gr roundnose might be real close to a 22LR.
I think trail boss is it!

The 22 hornet loaded with older powders like 4198 and 45-50gr get pretty low velocities. 2400, 2600,2800 with 45 grainers are all addvances do to new powders like IMR4227, 296/H110, & LIlgun

Also the 40grHP Sierra is a hard hard bullet at 2700fps and so is the 45gr SP Sierra thats ment for the 22-250 and 3800 fps.
 

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YES, without a doubt, trail boss is Perfect for mild loads that are still quite accurate. i use it for 45-70, .243w and .30-06. and the added benefit is that it will fill more than 50% of any brass case as the *start* load. you can load as much *uncompressed* trail boss as ya like, and THAT is the max load for ANY cartridge. i love that powder!

once again, as to the op's topic question, if he has any caliber under .23 in his current arsenal, just get some trail boss and have at it. if not, depending on disposable income, time and the need for either simplicity or complexity - that criteria will dictate what rifle to get. if it was me, and i didn't have a sub .23 caliber rifle and had no desire to spend a buncha dollars or waste time and money on funky weird calibers and cartridges, i'd get me a handi in .22 hornet or .223 and load up with tb. done deal, case closed. ymmv, as always.
 

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I agree that for all practical purposes the.22 Hornet is the smallest re-loadable cartridge with easy to find components and no custom dies or reamers required. Do not under estimate the little Hornet. The .22Hornet almost died out a few years ago but has made a big come back as urban growth has made quieter cartridges more desirable in areas closer to towns. The hornet is way above the.22 rim fire normally but Trail Boss can be used to bring velocities way down. Older Hornets did use .223 dia bullets but all newer Hornets use the common .224. You can use either in older guns without worry. Rifling twist should be at least 1 in 14. The Hornet will give you a great versatile cartridge when hand loaded down to .22 or .22 mag levels at 1200 to 2000 FPS or way up to 150 YD Varmint rounds at 2700 to over 3000 FPS depending on bullet weight used. Hand loading does give you a broad range of loads for the little center fire. .224 bullets are very common in many designs from 30 GR to 50 GR and thin jacked explosive varmint to tougher and heavier bullets for faster cartridges like .223 or 22-250 that are being used for bigger game.
Enjoy what ever you choose.
 

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The 5x28 looks like a good cartridge, a little slower than the.22 hornet with same bullet weights and will be a better fit for an AR15. Availability of ammo and guns chambered in 5.7x28 are still rare in many. I never even heard of it here until recently. AR15 are not common for hunting here. The .22 Hornet is common everywhere as are components and dies.
 

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Pretty good write up in Wiki: FN 5.7×28mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It was designed as a replacement for the 9x19 parabellum, which we all know was designed in the early part of the 20th century and is the US military handgun standard. The 5.7 was designed and produced just over 10 years ago, so that's why many of us are just now learning about it.

The idea was to have a pistol caliber that's lighter in weight (1/2 that of the 9mm), no down-range carryover, etc., and yet penetrate ballistic vests. It's now being used by many military and LE units in the US and elsewhere.

The FN pistol it was designed for, looks pretty common to my eye. FN Five-seven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most loadings for the 5.7 are for sub-30 gr. bullets, although you can find commercial loadings up to 40 gr. bullets (Hornady). Standard twist is 1-9".

A concern is that there are lots of internet reports (for what that's worth) indicating that it's tricky to handload, particularly if loading for the s/a pistol. However that may be, if one were to load for a single-shot rifle or handgun, those concerns would not be as critical.

Another concern is that FN coats its brass with a polymer plastic to aid in chambering and ejection. Not sure what said coating would do to a set of reloading dies. Would it need to be removed before re-loading? Other brands apparently don't have the coating.

Since it uses standard .223 bullets, one could experiment and whale-away. Several reports talk about experimental loads using 55 gr. bullets which would be sub-sonic, and much quieter. Military/LE loads will penetrate Level III kevlar vests. We are assured that civilan loads will not.

I've already found fired brass at our gun range, some with the coating, some without. It's apparently being used by the SWAT team in our county. I suspect we'll see lots more of this cartridge in the future, and in more civilian firearms, both in long guns and handguns. Through their custom shop, you can buy a barrel for your TC Contender in that caliber now.
 

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It was commericalized 10 years ago. I knew of the cartridge and had a fired case from 1990 in Germany when a certain Teir 1 unit visited us. Cartridge started life in 1989.


CD
 

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If the 5.7x28 becomes standard US and Nato issue then it will catch on here soon in civilian use. So far that is happening very slowly and I have not seen major gun companies offering rifles for it yet. When Savage, Winchester and Remington offer it in few of their rifles, it will become popular. Until then it will be dificult to find ammo in most smaller stores. It looks like it could be a useful small center fire cartridge.
 

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Does anyone know of a reloadable cartridge close in caliber to .22? I know there is nothing factory and it would have a be a wildcat of some kind, which I am very unfamiliar. PA has a dumb rule that you may not use any caliber larger than .23 to hunt small game and I would like to reload for my small game hunting (why, just because). I would not be pushing the bullet very fast as it would be for edible game so I don't need a large case. At this point, the best I can come up with is downloading the .223 but that is a lot of powder or empty space in the case. Either way I would like something smaller...any ideas? Thanks!
I don't know if someone else has suggested this yet, I didn't read all of the post's. The 22 TCM ( Tuason Craig Magnum ) developed by Rock Island Armory ( Armscor ). It's a .223 cut down to 1.022 inches with an O.A.L of 1.265 inches. I'ved likes this little round for a while now and one day will get one. The cartridge feeds from a standard 9mm magazine and pushes a 40gr pill to 1875 fps I think from a handgun and to 2000 fps from a rifle. Lee, Hornady, and Redding I believe make dies for it and I've seen some load data that starts at 9 grs with a max of 10 grs. The powders they listed were Winchester 296 or H110 and recommended primers are Tula/Wolf small pistol. You can use any small pistol or small rifle primer though, it said.
 

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there are essentially two camps for answering the op's question ...

if one has the time and capitol to mess with wildcats and weird cartridges (and the gun to use them in), that's just great. maybe for others, not for me.

there are more than a few cartridges that are well designed and easily obtainable either in over the counter commerical loads or via easy to acquire reloading tools and components, for easily obtainable firearms.

all of this is for the op to decide, not anyone else. with four pages of suggestions, he should be close to rendering his decision and choice ......
 

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....all of this is for the op to decide, not anyone else. with four pages of suggestions, he should be close to rendering his decision and choice ......

You'd think...;)

But we "internet experts" just can't shut up. :eek:

Was filing away a bunch of old Rifle magazines and found one where the author (Chas. Petty) had a TC Contender with a 14" barrel in 22 Jet. Because he couldn't find brass, he formed a bunch of .357 brass (only takes two forming dies, plus the .357 die).

Interesting article. Lot of effort to get 22 Hornet velocities/performance with the same bullets. And because he only used H110/W296 powder, there were no reduced velocity loads.

All these posts seem to lead to the Hornet, don't they?!
 

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light .223 loads from hodgdon

55 GR. HDY FMJ IMR Trail Boss .224" 2.200" 4.0 1074
55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP
 

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A number of years ago, I obtained a M-1 Carbine barrel in 5.7MMJ from Numrich and installed it on a customers Iver Johnson Manufactured Carbine. It was pretty accurate for a non bedded carbine. The cases were .30 Carbine cases necked down to .22 cal.. The cartridge is close to the .218 Bee in dimensions, without the rim. The Bee is an ideal rimmed cartridge for use in most single shot Martini actions, and accurate to a fault in a 1 in 10 twist barrel. The MMJ would work well in a semi auto, but would end up as a manually actuated bolt gun in a M-1 Carbine if loaded down as the OP wants to do.


Lee
 

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Years ago when the "revolutionary" 22 rimfire longrifle "stinger" came out, the article I was reading
explained that the extra performance came via more qty of a slower burning powder
which was in common use in the reloading community. ( all the same principles applied
from centerfire reloading etc ) I cannot remember what powder
was used and I cannot find the info anywhere. Does anyone remember ?

I'd also like to know what powders are used in the 22 rimfire magnums.

If anyone ever was to sell rimfire components and some kind of home seat and
crimp bullet tools I think they would sell millions.
 

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If anyone ever was to sell rimfire components and some kind of home seat and
crimp bullet tools I think they would sell millions.


Hoo boy....wonder how many million fingers and eyes....and maybe whole homes....would disappear?

I've not seen it on person, but have on video: after the case is drawn, a primer slurry is dropped and the case spun to force the slurry to the outside, i.e., the rim. Then the case is heated to dry the slurry. The case is next charged with powder, then the bullet inserted, crimped and packaged. All done on high-speed machines, of course, that make millions of cartridges per day.

It's the primer slurry that's problematic for home reloaders. Even if we had a machine that would spin the cartridge satisfactorily (maybe a drill chuck?), the slurry is extremly volatile, particularly as it dries into an unstable solid.

All of us have taken apart a rimfire cartridge (haven't we?:p. The powder grains seem much smaller than any reloading powder I've ever used, and is, no doubt, an extremely fast type. I suspect it's not available on the open market.

You could probably make your own primer slurry.....please don't tell me you're my neighbor! :eek:
 

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No I was not thinking about re-priming rimfire shells, heck, I'd say a primed
rimfire case probably costs very close to a centerfire primer to make so I
was just thinking about the rimfire cases as disposable consumables. I guess that takes
the "reloadable" term out of it.... so maybe just call it roll your own rimfires...
not sure what the benefit would be ... other than custom performance
but no way it could be cheaper by rolling your own I dont think.
I just think it would be cool to be able to select from many types sizes
and shapes of bullets with different qty and types of powders etc.
 
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