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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
New to reloading (hi everyone!), have read books and researched for months, and am super excited but...confused on a few things with my first batch! (And have searched the forum prior to posting but haven't found the answers yet.)

Bolt action .30-06
20 Winchester cases and 20 Remington, once-fired
IMR 4320
Winchester large rifle primers
Xtreme copper plated 150 gr fp

First: the neck sizes varied between cases after neck-sizing them, so that when seating bullets about a half dozen were so loose the bullets fell inside the cases, all Remington FWIW. Most of the others seated fine, and are now crimped and happy, but a handful of both brands have a little wiggle in them if I try to move them by hand.

Is this unsafe and should I pull them all and start over? And what is the cause?

Second, I want to double check the load. They are copper plated and I've seen info online that that should be limited to 1500 fps...but no 30-06 load ever goes that low. Am I missing something?

Oh, and third, since they are flat point, I'm having trouble getting them to the minimum overall length, meaning they are seated quite shallowly. Can I extrapolate the oal by imagining it has a point?

Total noob here! :eek:

Thanks in advance!
 

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Welcome from New Mexico, Yentna.

What kind of dies are you using and are they adjusted correctly? You should not have been able to even start those bullets by hand. I mean, they'll go in a 1/6" or 1/8", but that's it. Something's not right in the sizing operation.

Don;t worry about that overall length. Try to get about a caliber's length of the bullet below the mouth (about 308 or so in this case). If they're still loose, you could add some tentsion with Lee factory crimp die, but that still wouldn;t fix the root of the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Lee dies; used the neck sizing die instead of full length. According to the instructions, it's adjusted correctly. Turned it until it touched the shell holder then a quarter turn more, then another quarter turn when it became apparent it wasn't touching the shell at first (opening was still out of round). At that setting the openings got rounded and I could feel the change at I pushed the lever.

And that's good to know, that I shouldn't be able to even push them in by hand.

About a half-caliber length is in the mouth, so I assume that's not in far enough?

Thanks StretchNM.
 

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From what we know, I suggest that you may have a bullet problem. I'm not familiar with these bullets, but I suggest that you measure them. They should be at least .3075, preferably .308. If that checks out, then you need to measure the inside diameter of the sized cases. This is harder to do accurately, but a good dial caliper and skilled usage should give you a decent measurement. This should be less than .307; .304 to .306 would be good. There is little doubt that one of these two measurements is off, and you aren't going to have much success until you ascertain which, and correct it. And don't just measure one or two of each, but several.

Seating a half caliber isn't real good, but not the end of the world. I'd seat them deeper; as mentioned above, one caliber is pretty basic, but not a life & death matter. Minimum overall length isn't very significant. Exceeding maximum overall length can be much more problematic.

You refer to these bullets as being plated. That being the case, then you need to be using cast bullet loading data, no jacketed bullet data.
 

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With the Lee collet neck sizer, you have to use a significant amount of force to squeeze the neck against the mandrel. You should be able to "feel" it squeeze the neck. And as Stretch said, you shouldn't be able to hand force the bullet into a properly sized neck. Use a caliper to check the mandrel diameter. It should be something like .305 or so. I had a Lee die once that had a 7mm mandrel by mistake. You may have a mandrel for a .311 bullet by mistake. But likely you aren't using enough pressure on the press handle.
 

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Where are you located yentna?I have had the same issue with 30-06 Lee Dies.If the Lee die is not clean it will not work properly and you will never have enough neck tension.I really do not like these dies.If they are kept clean and lubed properly they work well.I have never had any issues with an RCBS or Hornady die or any other for that matter, sizing the neck properly. From the Xtreme website, .........,Load Info:
- Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.
- All of our Hard Cast Lead Bullets are approximately 18 on Brinell, our Cowboy lead bullets are approximately 15 on Brinell................... You may want to pull all those bullets and find some proper ones. Clean your die and give the moving parts inside a very light coat of a good gun oil. Make sure everything moves smoothly and freely. Somewhere in this forum someone gave good instructions on setting this die up and it worked for me.
 

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It's a rough time to be a new reloader, what with all the component shortages.

Case in point: You bought plated bullets (cast lead bullets with a copper wash) but you're using a powder that will probably not allow you to slow the muzzle velocity down enough to use those bullets. I think IMR4320 is a great powder for jacketed bullets in the '06, but for plated...you might have a real challenge on your hands.

When you first get into reloading, you should buy the components needed to match a load recipe 100%, right down to the brand of brass and exact primer used. Starting out with plated bullets, in a powerful centerfire rifle, is making the learning curve that much steeper. :twocents:
 

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Everyone gave you excellent advice on what to do or try. broom_jm summed it up very well about mixing and matching components. Just make sure you use a load where all the components match the given load. Good luck.
 

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I recently bought 1000 Xtreme 150 gr FP plated bullets for use in .30-30. With the flat point, they really are designed for use the .30-30 lever guns, although some shooters are trying them in small capacity .30 rounds like the .300 Blackout as well as the 7.62x39.

I checked the dimensions of 10 of them randomly selected out of the box and they were all within a range between .3085 and .3090. Your's may vary but I would not anticipate undersized bullets as the problem.

----

I strongly recommend getting Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook if you're going to be shooting cast or plated bullets.

Slowing them down enough in the .30-06 will be an issue. They cite 1500 fps as the upper limit on their website, but I would not be too concerned with pushing them up to 2000-2200 fps, which is the normal upper limit for gas checked cast bullets. It'll either work or it won't and if not you'll find the max velocity for your particular bore on the way up.

For cast bullet use with a soft lead bullet, a slow to medium burn rate powder like H4895 or IMR 4895, H4831 or IMR 4831, or H4198 are good places to start.

With a 150 gr cast or plated bullet 18 grains of H4198 should give you around 1300-1400 fps and 24 grains should get you up around 1700 fps in .30-06. That's about the slowest load I am aware of using a 150 gr cast bullet and rifle powder.

To go slower you need to use one of the few pistol powders that work well with lots of excess case volume. Care needs to be taken as they are not the same bullet and resistance in the bore may differ greatly, but for pistol powders, Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook lists the following for their 151 gr 311440 gas checked bullet:

151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Red Dot 11.0 1497 fps
Remarks: sugg. start load; 25,200 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Red Dot 14.0 1724 fps
Remarks: max load; 36,400 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check IMR 700-X 10.0 1420 fps
Remarks: sugg. start load; 25,200 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check IMR 700-X 13.5 1691fps
Remarks: max load; 38,600 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Green Dot 12.0 1545 fps
Remarks: sugg. start load; 29,400 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Green Dot 15.0 1727 fps
Remarks: max load; 40,900 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check IMR PB 11.5 1455 fps
Remarks: sugg. start load; 24,600 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check IMR PB 15.0 1709 fps
Remarks: max load; 40,300 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Unique 12.5 1628 fps
Remarks: sugg. start load; 25,800 cup
151 Cast #311440 gas check Alliant Unique 17.0 1964 fps
Remarks: max load; 38,100 cup


That's really where you need to be with a cast bullet in a large case like the .30-06 to keep the velocities low.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
byrl said:
I had a Lee die once that had a 7mm mandrel by mistake. You may have a mandrel for a .311 bullet by mistake. But likely you aren't using enough pressure on the press handle.
Thanks byrl; I'll measure the mandrel when I get home. And I've been bottoming out the lever so can't add any pressure.

264shooter said:
Where are you located yentna?
Utah. Bummed to hear the dies have been an issue; and I'll search the forum for the good setup thread.

broom_jm said:
It's a rough time to be a new reloader, what with all the component shortages.

Case in point: You bought plated bullets (cast lead bullets with a copper wash) but you're using a powder that will probably not allow you to slow the muzzle velocity down enough to use those bullets. I think IMR4320 is a great powder for jacketed bullets in the '06, but for plated...you might have a real challenge on your hands.

When you first get into reloading, you should buy the components needed to match a load recipe 100%, right down to the brand of brass and exact primer used. Starting out with plated bullets, in a powerful centerfire rifle, is making the learning curve that much steeper. :twocents:
All too painfully true. I (finally, has taken a while!) tried and managed to find the other components for the recipe, but had a hard time finding bullets without a long wait. Was happy to find plated since I thought they would fly more or less similar to jacketed with a few tweaks, but when I found out it needed the cast recipe I was up a creek since the Lee manual doesn't even have any recipes for cast of that weight. Other sources said you could load midway between cast and jacketed, and from other recipes that ended up seeming to be the low end of jacketed, so I thought I'd be ok....until finding the max fps of 1500 on xtreme's website... And none of the recipes for any bullet/powder combo in the Lee book even come close to being as low as 1500 fps.

If I can't find a cast recipe in the Lee book, nor on the powder company's website, is there a cast recipe that will work? I'd hate to chuck a box of 500 bullets, especially right now. Ordering Lyman's cast book if that will help...

(PS. Thanks everyone else for the help too that I didn't quote.)

#rambling
 

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Yentna,

You say the die is bottoming out? I think you maybe have full length sizing die instructions and collet die instructions confused. A full length sizing die has a mouth position fixed by how far down you turn the die body threads into the press threads, and it can bottom out. The neck sizing Lee Collet Die has the bottom of its sizing collet sticking out out of the die body and it is not fixed. The deck of the shell holder is supposed to make contact with that protruding portion of the collet and then push it up further, sliding it up into the die body. That action is what pushes the collet nose against its angled closing surface in the die body. If you aren't doing that, it isn't closing the collet to size the neck at all. That would explain the loose fit.

Watch the Lee help video on setting up a Lee Collet Die.

Watch the Lee help video on setting up a Lee full length sizing die.

If, on the other hand, you are indeed pushing the collet up until the shell deck meets the die body because you have pushed the collet all the way up and you still are not getting any sizing, then the wrong collet is in the Collet die. By disassembling the die and measuring the length of the collet, you can then call Lee and verify that it's wrong and you can expect they will replace it for you.

The Lee Collet Die is a great tool when properly used, but there is a learning curve as to squeeze pressure and feel. Because of that, the Lee Collet Die is not the die I would have started with as a beginner. The regular full length sizing die is what I would have started with, though it does require the extra step of lubricating the cases.

You said you cannot meet the .30-06 minimum length. Both the 30-06 minimum COL , 2.940", and the maximum COL, 3.340", given by SAAMI in their drawing are to assure fit into, and feed from, SAAMI compliant magazines. If you are loading singly, one-round-at-a-time, they don't mean anything. Some folks have fired full wadcutters in the .30-06, seated flush with the case mouth. Some have fired VLD bullet shapes with very long ogives seated out well beyond the SAAMI maximum. The former won't feed reliably from a magazine and the latter is often too long to fit into a magazine designed for SAAMI standard compliant .30-06 cartridges, and that is why they must be loaded and fired individually. If you are willing to do that, then the minimum may be ignored completely down to case length, and the maximum will be determined by how far out you can seat without jamming the bullet into the rifling.

The maximum velocity numbers for bullets are very, very rough guidelines. What determine whether or not a bullet is upset heavily and starts to foul badly in a bore is the maximum pressure on its base and the roughness of the bore. The same load that produces the maximum acceptable pressure, if fired in a pistol with a 2" barrel and then in a carbine with a 20" barrel, will produce two very different velocities, but fouling deposited or bullet deformation that occurs inside the bore will be the same. What will be different is how many RPM the bullet is spinning, and if it is soft enough, a higher velocity from the carbine, assuming the same rifling twist rate, could cause a softer bullet to deform in flight from centrifugal effects.

So, what velocity should be called the limit? Well, what barrel length and rifling pitch do you use? How rough is your barrel? To complicate things further, different powder burn rates can produce the same velocities, but have different peak pressures. As a result, maximum velocities for a bullet really only apply to one kind of powder and one rifling pitch in one length of barrel in one sort of condition. When velocity limits are published there are assumptions being made that you are using a typical barrel length in typical condition, a standard rifling pitch for the cartridge, and a typical powder.

What you have to do to determine maximum velocity in your gun with your components is to start working loads up at the low end, watching for increases in fouling and watching for groups to start opening up. Those will determine upper limits with your choice of powder, and what the maximum velocity is going to be in your gun, with that powder, is whatever you measure at that point.

For softer bullets in the .30-06, I'd recommend trying to get your hands on some IMR Trail Boss powder as a starting point. Save your 4320 for jacketed bullets. Follow these instructions with Trail Boss and you will have some good practice and small game loads. You cannot safely compress Trail Boss, so it may never get you to an unacceptably high velocity in your rifle.
 

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Usually, if a reloader is new, it isn't a mandrel problem, they just aren't applying enough force at the lever of the loader. Your's truly did that the first time he attempted to reload '06 with those same dies. Usually there is nothing wrong with the dies.

Apply a firm push after the shell holder has made contact with the die. It should move up very slightly. Recheck your necks and I bet they will all be sized correctly.

edit: as a clarification, you bottom the die, and then add pressure. The dies don't start to size until the shell holder makes contact with the die. You are squeezing the neck with the amount of pressure you add after the shell holder is in contact with the die.
 

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New to reloading (hi everyone!), have read books and researched for months, and am super excited but...confused on a few things with my first batch! (And have searched the forum prior to posting but haven't found the answers yet.)

Bolt action .30-06
20 Winchester cases and 20 Remington, once-fired
IMR 4320
Winchester large rifle primers
Xtreme copper plated 150 gr fp

First: the neck sizes varied between cases after neck-sizing them, so that when seating bullets about a half dozen were so loose the bullets fell inside the cases, all Remington FWIW. Most of the others seated fine, and are now crimped and happy, but a handful of both brands have a little wiggle in them if I try to move them by hand.

Is this unsafe and should I pull them all and start over? And what is the cause?

Second, I want to double check the load. They are copper plated and I've seen info online that that should be limited to 1500 fps...but no 30-06 load ever goes that low. Am I missing something?

Oh, and third, since they are flat point, I'm having trouble getting them to the minimum overall length, meaning they are seated quite shallowly. Can I extrapolate the oal by imagining it has a point?

Total noob here! :eek:

Thanks in advance!
First, take your sizing die apart and measure the diameter of the expander button with a good caliper or micrometer. It should be no larger than .306". If its bigger, replace it. Then, as far as neck sizing goes, you can get away with it in a bolt action, but sooner or later you'll have to full length resize. A better option is to split the difference between neck and full length sizing with what some people call partial full length.

That means you size the case just enough to set the shoulder back about .002". It also sizes the neck and most importantly, the base area. This ensures long case life, proper chamber fit, and consistency from round to round.

As far as powder charges go, your best bet is to check the online data for IMR-4320 (Hodgdon), or from the bullet manufacturer. 4320 is probably not the best powder for that type of bullet. IMR-4198 would be good, even some of the slower pistol powders if you're trying to stay in the 1500 fps range. I would also check out the Lyman manual for the same weight in a lead bullet. However, a properly sized cast bullet with good lube and a gas check is fully capable of 2000 fps without leading and with excellent accuracy.

As someone already said on the seating, you want at least a caliber's worth inside the neck. If this bullet has a cannelure, just seat it to that point. DO NOT CRIMP. That will only distort the bullet and is likely why they are loose to start with, and you don't need to crimp bottle neck catridges.

Another source for data would be from guys who shoot cast bullets in '03 Springfields. There's a bunch of them in the reloading section over on the CMP forum. Although, Unclenick and Model 52 gave you some gold plated info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks unclenick!

Well then, awesome info and great links. Thanks for the video and the load data. I'm off to hunt down some Trail Boss for now (hopefully won't take too long, eek!, and also get to look forward to pulling a bunch of bullets tonight.

Definitely not applying enough pressure too, since I thought it was bottomed out, so I'll resize them. And then (not so) patiently await the powder. And I'll check out the cast bullet threads.

Totally unlikely, but anyone selling some Trail Boss? :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
PS. Ordering the Lyman cast bullet manual, and found some jacketed bullets I'm ordering for use with my 4320, but in the meantime are there other powders that might be more readily accessible that can be loaded for plated? I've signed up for alerts on several sites but Trail Boss is backordered everywhere. (Ok, yes, most powders are backordered everywhere of course, just hoping that if I know some other options I might stumble on something locally. Who knows!)
 

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..................According to the instructions, it's adjusted correctly. Turned it until it touched the shell holder then a quarter turn more, then another quarter turn when it became apparent it wasn't touching the shell at first (opening was still out of round). At ...................................
Yentna, All the advice is good, but I really think it's something very simple. I'm going out on a very strong limb here:

There's nothing wrong with the die. Adjust it exactly as Lee says to.

- First, you didn;t adjust it correctly. Turn the die down to the shellholder (just kissing it). Lower the ram and turn it in one full turn. Add another quarter or so if needed (after trying a couple of cases).

- Second, it's possible that the die is stuck. If you raise the ram on the collet die, without a case in the shellholder, you can jam the collet up into the die. The collet protrudes from the bottom of the die. Can you spin it freely with your fingers? If not, the collet is stuck. Take it apart and put it back together again.

Yentna, check the collet for spin. Then adjust it properly. It's not far enough in right now. As others said, you'll need some pressure - Lee says 25 lbs. You can approximate that - it's easy. When you first size a fired case, you'll feel the die "crush" the neck. You'll feel it. Then lower the ram an inch or so, spin the case a quarter or half or so, and do it again. You'll feel nothing the second time, but the collet is working anyway.

ON EDIT: About feeling the "crush". On those cases you have there, it's possible that you did get a little sizing in already. I mean, they are no longer fresh from the chamber of your rifle, so you may not feel the crush on those. You will on a fresh batch. If you don;t, check for stuck and adjustment.

Also I re-read your post. You said the case mouth was out of round and you could tell the die was doing something because when extracted, the mouth was round again. If the case is out of round, just Raising the case into the die gives some feeling because the mandrel is forcing its way past the deformed case mouth, but that's not sizing the neck. That's just the mandrel pushing in and rounding out the mouth. You still have a long way to go after that before the neck is crushed tight against the mandrel.
 

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Actually the sequence of fixing the problems is out of order. Sorry about that.

FIRST, check to make sure the collet is free. You'll feel a little slop when messing with the protruding collet. And... it will spin, or at least turn without much resistance.

SECOND, adjust the die in the press as outlined above. The reason you want to check the collet before adjusting the die is because you need that protruding collet "free" before making adjustment. That's why you just kiss the shellholder before lowering the ram and turning in one full trun. It will make sense to you as soon as you do it, or I should say as soon as you do it and it works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks StretchNM. Reset the die, pulled the bullets, (removed the decapper pin of course) and resized the cases....boom. I now cannot push a bullet in by hand! Now just awaiting my order of jacketed bullets, whilst continuing the hunt for an appropriate cast bullet powder.

You all are awesome, thanks for the help, and the patience with a n00b! I feel so much more prepared now, and the practice was well worth it too.
 

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Thanks StretchNM. Reset the die, pulled the bullets, (removed the decapper pin of course) and resized the cases....boom. I now cannot push a bullet in by hand! Now just awaiting my order of jacketed bullets, whilst continuing the hunt for an appropriate cast bullet powder.

You all are awesome, thanks for the help, and the patience with a n00b! I feel so much more prepared now, and the practice was well worth it too.
Good to hear, I am glad you got it figured out!
 
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