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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello,

I would like your take on this.

I know the gun rags would have you believe that reloading ammo for defense is a bad idea.

However, I've yet to find a steady supply of defensive ammo - but I do have a ready supply of components in .45acp: Brass (new if I want), 230gn old style Remington HP bullets, which I love, and Winchester primers.

I seat to a depth of 1.265" COL, charged with 5.2gn of Bullseye, which is the maximum I find listed for this style bullet. No pressure signs and I'm seated a bit further out.

This combo has no muzzle flash and at least keeps up with the modern, expensive factory offerings.

It feeds very reliably, and I have complete and total confidence in the load and my ability to reload. The primers never touch my hands, for example - no contamination at all the way I do it (I work in medicine and use many of the same cross-contamination prevention procedures in reloading as we do with patients). (I recently had to run a very well known and popular name brand through a resizing die to make it work - it looked very hurried and would not feed correctly - definitely not what it used to be).

Honestly, it's the best load I've found. And the cheapest. And did I mention it keeps up with modern wonder bullets?

I've not seen one single case in which reloads came into play if a shoot was righteous.

Can'o'worms open; what are your opinions?

Thanks,

Josh
 

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I carry my reloads...45acp, Remington brass, 230 grain XTP, 7 grains of Power Pistol, CCI 300, 1.23" OAL

I know a few lawyers, they say as long as its a good shoot...it won't matter what I use.

However, this may vary depending on your location and the local political climate.
 

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+1 - If it is a justifiable shot then not an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Nope, just get antsy if I don't have at least 500 rounds of centerfire for each rifle/pistol, and at least 2000 rounds of rimfire.
 

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I won't use handloads for my defense guns. If I did have to shoot someone, I want the CSIs to be able to reproduce my bullet specs in the lab to verify my testimony. There was a case were a man's wife killed herself with his defense handgun. It was loaded with light loads which left no powder residue, so they concluded he murdered her.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Some of you guys watch too much TV :rolleyes:
 

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Some of you guys watch too much TV :rolleyes:
Yep, like "Guns and Ammo T.V."

Those having to carry for a living or by rules of Uncle Sam appear a bit out-gunned by the yahoos.....Funny right there. Maybe some of the boys in the know could send some of their extensive knowledge to the real dudes dealing with it in the desert.......
 

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i sure do mike.. id much rather be on the go outside most of the time.. but can t do it now due to more important circumstances.. so i set an watch tv a lot with my wife..
but you right .. thats just acting an a form of escape from the reality of a persons own life..best be living life than watching some actor do his best at imitating life..
i do like some actors..but hold them in no higher regard than say a good electrician or one of the other trades..slim
did that make sense.. grin
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I meant gaining ballistics "knowledge" from mainstream network TV shows like CSI, Law and Order, and the like. Sometimes they have useful information and sometimes it's just made up. Unfortunately there are no disclaimers so that the public can tell the difference!

No offense to anyone.
 

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Joshua,

Here is Ayoob's list of cases where handloads caused a problem:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140


That posted, it should also be noted that, with care, a knowledgeable handloader should be able to make more reliable ammunition than a commercial manufacturer just because he can inspect every element of the load at every step of assembly. Nonetheless, the police and forensics people can screw up.

One lesson from the Florida case where the forensics people assumed a same-headstamp commercial round's residue indicated the distance a light target handload with the same headstamp was from the victim, I would only put such loads into Starline or Top Brass or some other headstamp for which no commercially named ammo is made. I would not use any bullet different from what the local law enforcement carries unless it is non-expanding. Indeed, there may be a good case for using wide meplat bullets rather than hollow points, as they are known effective stoppers but without the stigma of bloodthirstiness attached by the press to expanding bullets.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Interesting.

Of the three cases mentioning handloads, one was a suicide. I personally don't believe that this has anything to do with self-defense. While there was a question of the handloads making it appear that the firearm was slightly farther away during the suicide attempt, this would not be a factory in a justifiable shooting (in my opinion) when even an edged weapon is considered a lethal threat within 21 feet.

I believe even Ayoob goes along with the 21 feet as being a valid threat in an incident involving an edged weapon, and only mentions this as a minor factor in the third case, and that evidence mishandling was a significant contributing factor. Of course mishandling of evidence is surely beyond the control of the ordinary person.

This pretty well leaves the first case as significant, and I suspect that civil suits against cops are pretty well the rule in any shooting, justified or not, handloads or not. Also, it would seem a simple proposition that if a handloaded bullet is available in factory ammo (as it was in the first case), then the defense is as simple as pointing this out to the jury, and simple testing in any media that causes expansion.

My conclusion after reading these? The case with the most severe consequences was the suicide, and that has nothing to do with self-defense. I'll agree that Ayoob has in fact come up with cases where handloads have been a factor in defense. However, if this is the best he can do, then I think it's a non-issue the overwhelming majority of the time.

Not said, but implied, was that all these cases had a lack of third-party eyewitnesses. The first one, the cop, wouldn't be an issue for many departments, as patrol cars are increasingly equipped with video cameras.

I conclude that it's hardly a given that handloads will put you in the slammer when factory loads would leave you in the clear.
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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The CWP criteria during qualifying in our county in Iowa strictly stipulates commercial rounds and FMJ ammo only. The no-handloads/hollow-points is based on lawyers advice....and one of the lawyers reasons is a jury is more inclined to be prejudiced against a handload, the idea being that type of person is more inclined to be trigger-happy and/or more inclined to shoot when other options are available. One of the first questions this lawyer says he asks the defendent is "how many firearms do you have" and feels comfortable the jury will be influenced by a handloader with more than one firearm.

But as has been said, I'm sure that depends on the location and the circumstances. Our folks simply say "why take the chance?" Apparently my TAP factory ammo is also a no-no....marks me as a "more inclined to shoot" and/or "more inclined to kill" type according to the lawyer. Best advice I've recieved is to make sure I have no avenue of escape before I shoot.
 

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Aside from legal requirements for CCW or using illegal ammunition/bullets/firearms this is a non-issue. Ayoob makes something from nothing and for no good reason has spread disinformation. What no one ever discusses is the difference from a criminal case and a civil case - just ask O.J. - Most of the cutting edge self-defense ammunition makers advertise how their ammunition makes gruesome wound channels or destroys the human target. I practiced law for 20 years including both criminal and civil firearms cases. I would love to show a jury the advertisements for the latest "killer" factory ammunition. Civil cases are driven by damages, "pain and suffering", future medical care (often the best part of the case for the attorney), the the nature and extent of the damages including economic damage. Scum criminals love suing their victims and scum attorneys love to sue victims as well. Beware of the DA and beware of the "ambulance chaser" - in my opinion there is more to be concerned about from the "ambulance chasers" Now as to Uncle Nick's point how about a .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter at 657 fps shooting through 36" of ballistic gelatin http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/
I shoot 150 grain Buffalo Bore Wadcutters at 854 fps (2" barrel) in my snub nose revolvers. I'm not concerned by overpenetration where I live and this shows - again - that "blunt" cast bullets at moderate or even low velocity penetrate and destroy like nothing else.
 

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Hello,

I would like your take on this.

I know the gun rags would have you believe that reloading ammo for defense is a bad idea.

However, I've yet to find a steady supply of defensive ammo - but I do have a ready supply of components in .45acp: Brass (new if I want), 230gn old style Remington HP bullets, which I love, and Winchester primers.

I seat to a depth of 1.265" COL, charged with 5.2gn of Bullseye, which is the maximum I find listed for this style bullet. No pressure signs and I'm seated a bit further out.

This combo has no muzzle flash and at least keeps up with the modern, expensive factory offerings.

It feeds very reliably, and I have complete and total confidence in the load and my ability to reload. The primers never touch my hands, for example - no contamination at all the way I do it (I work in medicine and use many of the same cross-contamination prevention procedures in reloading as we do with patients). (I recently had to run a very well known and popular name brand through a resizing die to make it work - it looked very hurried and would not feed correctly - definitely not what it used to be).

Honestly, it's the best load I've found. And the cheapest. And did I mention it keeps up with modern wonder bullets?

I've not seen one single case in which reloads came into play if a shoot was righteous.

Can'o'worms open; what are your opinions?

Thanks,

Josh
There is nothing wrong with caring 'hand loads' for defence, not RELOADS!
Use NEW UNFIIRED brass. I carried hand loads for may years as a cop in the 70's and early 80's because there were few loads on the marked truly made for self defence.
But that said there is no 'need' to carry hand loads today as there are MANY different loads on the market for defence.
As to the 'liability' issue I here come up, that is a myth. You are either right or wrong when you use your firearm, where the ammo came form is not relevant.
 

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The CWP criteria during qualifying in our county in Iowa strictly stipulates commercial rounds and FMJ ammo only.
Is near the same in my county as well DOK (for qualification purposes , factory ammunition only)...so I used a 22lr because it was the only factory-loaded handgun ammunition that I owned.

I did a search for the Iowa case referenced in unclenick's link and could not find anything using the names mentioned. I'm not sure what to make of that?

I carry a firearm for more reasons than just self-defence (simple reason is just so I don't have to go get one if I need one). What ammunition is in it at the time makes no difference (so long as it's loaded with something).

Cheezywan
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I can't qualify for concealed carry license with a .22. If I could I'd use a Mark II, or maybe just to be cantankerous, a Single-six. Often have thought of doing the qual with a Super Blackhawk and full-power loads for fun :D

The rules for the 50 round qualifying test say no handloads, but frankly there's no way anybody would know the difference unless you dis-assembled your gun with them, or ran your mouth.

Since it was convenient to do so, I did my last two quals with a 50-round box of .45 hardball. Some of the other class members commented on my enterprising spirit by qualifying with a 'big' gun.... they didn't know a 1911 was one of the lighter-recoiling handguns I have.... :D
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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.22's were not allowed in my Iowa test....center fire only and you had to use the more powerful if multiple caliber handgun, 357 and not 38 or 44 mag. not .44 special. Florida surprised me by allowing .22's for qualifying. In Iowa they inspected the cartridges for die marks to verify commercial only use. Not always possible to tell, but they did check.

The Florida qualification was a surprise in more ways than the caliber allowed.....10 shots on a 18" x 24" cardboard (no target, just the piece of cardboard) at 7 yards and 10 of our 12 person class needed every inch. The 78 year old woman got 9 of 10 and they said that's good enough. Now all this was done leaning up against the shelf between indoor stalls with the instructors continuously saying "take your time". I told the instructor afterwards that the crooks were safe, maybe a nick here and there, but no real damage.
 

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My lawyer tells me that if I use reloads there could be liability issues. So I buy and carry Hydr A Shok in my CCW piece and the same with my house defense pistol.

I shoot 50 to 100 rounds of ammo during the month for practice and those are reloads that are about the same velocity as the Hydr A Skoks so the feel is the same.

Every 6 months or so, I buy a couple of boxes of Hydr A Shoks for each pistol and every couple of months the rounds that are in the pistols are used at the range.

The big piece of advice was not use anything like the Black Talons or the Ranger SXT ammo, just being taken to court would cost an arm and a leg, even thou the case would probably be tossed out.

Jerry
 
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