[reloader357]

The Lee precision catalogue states that their 45/70 Government dies do will not work on the Hornady LEVERevolution cases. Does anyone know why?

I have emailed Lee but all they did was send me a copy of the statement from their website that says they don't work, not giving any reason.

Is it a secret?

If anyone knows I would really appreciate an explanation, I'm assuming it is something very simple like case length.

Anyone have the answer?

 

[cptjack]

Shorter case

 

[MontyF]

Yup the case is shorter on those rounds. My guess there will be a problem getting 'em to crimp.

 

[mikld]

By using a "pointy" bullet the cases are purposely made shorter, to keep the ogive out of the case (?). I believe I read they were about .060" shorter.

 

[carpooler]

Hornady felt that they pulled a fast one. You need to use their own Hornady Sleeved, seat, crimp, die set in order to get them to put in any kind of crimp. Crimped bullets are needed for tubular magazines, to keep the one's closer to the receiver from being jammed down into the case. In a single shot, or bolt rifle, it's not so apparent. IIRC, these are labeled New Dimension Reloading dies. Recently, they also stopped selling the gizzens for these sleeved seating dies. So now I have to buy an entire die to get the three little inside parts.

Needless to say, this does not set well, as I also bought a set of case formers, in standard calibers, to bring 375 Ruger Basic Brass, down to my 8mm Wildcat cartridge. Then Hornady discontinued selling these 375 Ruger Basics, altogether. So now, I'm doubly Sc#$%d.

Huntington Die Specialties sells the 8mm x 338 Win. Mag. reloading die set, at a reasonable price, so that's what I'm recommending to everyone who asks me about my wildcat.

 

[Ranch Dog]

Hornady needed to deviate from the SAAMI specs to make their pointy bullets work for leverguns. Lee makes dies to the SAAMI Spec. Hornady brass, at one time, was my favorite but not anymore. Too many other choices.

 

[MikeG]

Just grind a little off the bottom of the seater/crimp die. I've done it. Problem solved!

 

[cptjack]

can you use a lee FCD

 

[carpooler]

When I had my G.S. Shaun T. of Diamond T gunshop do my 44 Marsh ( Marlin Short ) wildcat, by short reaming a 51mm chamber using his own 444 Marlin reamer, he also shortened my 444 Marlin, Lee FCD for it. Later, I purchased a custom 44 Marsh reloading die set, and have used the seat and crimp dies from it. I think that Shaun shortened the Lee FCD's collet in his lathe. But in any case, my wildcat's case is only 51mm long, and the Lever Revolution's cases are 52mm long. So it most certainly, can be done.

 

[carpooler]

A word of warning about these Lever Revolution 444 Marlins

Winchester or USRAC never tried to put the 444 Marlins into a standard M-94 action. So I think it's important to note that these won't go into my own 51mm Wildcat, either. My wildcat uses blown out 356BB win. cases, which have the correct 30-30 win. rims, and an extra wide extraction groove. This lets the claw of the top ejector M-94's fit into it, without any grinding away of their spring steel.

Ergo, I do not presently make any of my wildcat cases out of those Hornady 444 Marlin Lever Revolutions. If the 356BB's completely go away, then I will have Shaun grind off my top ejectors' claw so that I can use those other, "FLANGED" cases. Of course I will have to shorten them more, back to the needed 51mm length. The stock 444 M. Lever Revolution ammo is just too hot.

Hornady must be keeping the 30-30 Win. Lever Revolutions' pressures commiserate with SAAMI specs for the original cartridge. But IIRC, you have to shoot out to 200 yards, for that gummy tip, to make much of any difference. My idea is if you need more wump, use a larger diameter bullet.

The other glitch is that because of this extra wide ext. groove, the 356BB's capacity is reduced by having extra reinforcing brass in it's case head. So I only have the capacity of a semi rimmed 300 Savage, to work with. And a 444 Marlin chamber only has the same short throat of the ancient 44 WCF.

If I have to have Shaun redo my extractor, I'll also have him throat out my chamber, so that I can start using standard nosed, full diameter, .430" cast bullets. My present system uses a modified two diameter cast bullet, with an exposed, bore diameter band, ahead of the exposed Keith bearing band, to help guide and balance these custom cast slugs, as they are fired down the barrel.

It may not be obvious, but the Hornady Lever Revolution bullets have enough of an ogive, to fit neatly into any 444 Marlin chambers. And if someone here wants to go the extra mile, he should have a custom chamber created, by shortening a 444 Marlin chamber, and reaming it back out to these Lever Revolutions' 52mm length. I doubt that he will ever look back, to using glorified revolver flat point jacketed bullets in his rifle, if he can handle the recoil of these factory loaded gummies.
\
Otherwise you are shooting hot 357 Mags in 357 Maximum chambers and wondering where your velocities went to. but with this 444 M. Lever Revolution factory ammo, you do have a oversized 357 Mag. made expressly to be shot out of a deeper 357 Maximum chamber, at 45,000 M.A.P.? And this is precisely why no 444 M. Lever Revolution ammo will ever be shot out of my 40,000 M.A.P., 44 Marsh wildcat.

It's also why USRAC never put a 45,000 M.A.P. 444 Marlin chambering into one of their Post 64 standard model 94's. Creating a custom, and correct, chamber, for this little bomb, is going to have to, juice up the pressures. I think the only way to understand this, is to chrono a stock 444 Mar. with this gummy tip ammo, and then set the barrel back, re-chamber it, and then do another chrono test, with the exact same box of their factory ammo. You might then extrapolate the higher pressures from the velocity increases.

 

[mikld]

Lots of interesting info on a couple wildcats and Marlin 444, but the OP asked about 45/70...

I don't think the standard 45/70 Lee collet crimp (FCD) will work as the distance from the bottom of the die to the case mouth will differ, placing the collet in the wrong place. But just looking at the Lee site it mentions a "Custom Overrun Factory Crimp Dies Available for Immediate Shipment:" list with 45/70 LeverRevolution listed...Factory Crimp Die - Lee Precision

 

[carpooler]

Mikld, I only post on what I've already done. Yes, the 44 post only parallels the 45-70G, but it will work out the same. If you chrono a 45-70G with the Lever Revolutions, and then trim back the barrel and re-chamber one for the shorter Hornady cases. I don't think that you'll ever look back, any more than I look back at the 444 Marlins. While no USRAC's were chambered in 45 -70's, IIRC, a few were done in the 450 Marlin. But the lower SAAMI pressures in the old 45-70 Gov't, belies these velocity increases, gained by short chambering for it.

I simply haven't yet shot a box of 45-70G Lever Revolutions, out of my Guide Gun, so I won't pontificate here. I almost exclusively, hand load for it. But I have migrated from my own home cast Lyman 457483, over to shooting Speer 400 gr. jacketed bullets. Both my own M-94 Wildcat and the Marlin 1895's, have mag tubes "influenced" over towards their loading gates. So both are limited in what bullet noses you can use, without risking a magazine tube detonation. The Hornady Gummie Tips get around this problem. The 400 gr. Speer jacketed bullets, are also very safe in these "influenced" tubular magazines.

The new Henry Repeating Arms, 45-70G, "Big Boys", don't use a loading gate in the side of their receivers, so they are also immune from these problems. In both my wildcat and the Marlin 1895's, the Gummie Tips make getting the cartridges to make their turn into the "influenced" mag tubes, very easy.

And if my G.S. could trim back the Lee FCD's collet piece in a 444 Marlin, he should be able to do the same for a 45-70G. Lee FCD. But the Hornady New Dimension reloading die set, is still probably the only, off the shelf, 45-70G. die set, which will crimp a bullet into a Hornady Lever Revolution case.

 

[MikeG]

can you use a lee FCD

The Lee FCD would have to be cut back as well, but you'd do it by putting the sliding piece with the collet 'fingers' in a lathe and cutting off the back end. Done it several times. If you don't take off much, may not have to mess with the die body.

I'm sure Lee could whip up a custom one, without too much trouble. They ought to know the measurements of the short Hornady brass by now!

 

[Submoa]

I've actually noticed that Hornady brass is almost always shorter than SAAMI spec for cartridge, which is why I don't use it much any more. I literally have boxes of both bottle neck and straight wall Hornady that I won't use because of this. I think Herter is probably made by Hornady also, cause their brass is short also.

SMOA

 

[nvshooter]

Then Hornady discontinued selling these 375 Ruger Basics, altogether. So now, I'm doubly sc#$%d.

I now use the factory-formed .375 Ruger case for my two mildcats. They work excellently. I still have 200-some raw Basics; I doubt I'll ever use them. I'll agree with you: It's dam-ned lowbrow for Hornady to throw out into the cold we who used this case in its Basic form for our mildcats. Fortunately for me, I'm still afloat-- at least for as long as Hornady continues to make the factory-formed .375 Ruger case. I hope you can use the factory case, too, carpooler. I know you've got a lot of work in your mildcats. Would be one hellsinki of a shame to have to backwards-barrel to some ho-hum standard cartridge to keep your smokepoles roaring.

 

[thomas15]

I want to summarize this thread as I understand it.

If you handload 45/70 you cannot use Hornady Leverevolution range brass for handloading because in order to get the leverevolution soft point bullet to work it needs to be in a slightly shorter brass case.

So, if you want to use the Hornady soft point bullets (in new factory loads) you have to make other arrangements if you plan on handloading using that particular brass after firing the factory ammo. Any other brass (even new non-leverevolution Hornady brass) is fine for loading 45/70 with standard dies.

In addition, if you are accustom to using range brass to make wildcat ammo then you also may need to look for something other than leverevolution brass to accomplish that goal.