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Discussion Starter #1
Have a Remington 870 20ga slugger. trigger pull release with the stock spring is betweem 5 pounds and 1 ton as My gauge only goes to 5 pounds max and the release is over that on my shot gun.

Wolff springs sells a hammer spring that reduces the trigger pull.
Any one know what that pull weight might be with a wolff hammer spring installed?


Al
 

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The Shadow
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I don't know, but a quality store job on the mating surfaces in the FCG, makes a huge difference.

Cheers
 

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The trigger pull is determined by the SEAR spring in the Remington fire control, not the hammer spring.
ANY ALTERATION of the RCFC is likely to result in LESS safety. The actual 'safety' does NOT prevent the gun from firing. Only the sear engagement keeps it from firing. It CAN FIRE anytime it's loaded.
 

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The Shadow
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FCG ? explain what that is.


Al
Fire Control Group:)
Essentially the important parts' mating surfaces (sear, disconnect, trigger).
My 870 had an abhorrent trigger when it was new. I found the batting surfaces were finished in early stone age. So I polished them with some 2,000 grit rouge, and the trigger pull became very nice.

The point isn't to change any angles, or file anything down; simply make what is, smoother.

If that seems out your skill level, then naturally don't do it.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am guessing the Woff hammer spring is not what I am wanting.


I was thinking this was the same spring as the woff hammer spring.




Al
 

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Just understand please. THAT trigger mechanism does NOT have a 'total' safety. It does prevent YOU from pulling the trigger, but the hammer, firing pin and sear are not in any way restrained or blocked. There are five points of failure. Failure is rare but often deadly. The gun CAN fire without the trigger being pulled, WHILE ON or OFF SAFE. The only true safety is in how secure the trigger and sear connection are. Notice that is a hook connection, not a square ledge connection like most triggers. The 'hook' adds security but makes a terrible trigger pull. All post war, dual pinned Remington pumps and autos use the same trigger mechanism.
There are two US patents to repair the defect. One is mine and one is Remington's. Their's is better and cost nothing, but they still haven't done it. Twenty-three years and counting.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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Which war?

I need to know if I should be askeerd of my 58 skeet grade going boom other than on purpose even though it never has.

RJ
 

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The Model 58 was the first of the gas guns and DOES have the RCFC in it. I had a four gun skeet set of Model 58s at one time.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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I better take the band saw to it then. CRAP!!

RJ
 
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Just be aware of its shortcoming. Be MORE careful, if possible.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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Nope, after hunting with it safely for 50 years I've already taken it to the bandsaw.

RJ
 
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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Jack is correct. If anyone doesn't believe him that the 'safety' on a Remington with the "common fire control system" (or whatever they call it) doesn't prevent the hammer from jumping the sear, just drop the trigger group out and try it. Put it on safe and cock the hammer, then use the end of a pencil or whatever, to push the sear away from the hammer. Hammer will go forward, every time, if the sear doesn't stay 'hooked' to the hammer. And it won't matter what position the 'safety' is in.

So yeah don't get carried away messing with the springs or mating surfaces.

I used to be pretty casual about putting a loaded shotgun in a case in a vehicle, but I darn sure won't anymore. Still hunt with both the 870 and 1100, no problem. Sit on the chair hunting doves, load it, and unload when done.
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Well sure did turn this into a chop up ypur Remington guns for the anti gun people. Sure does cover a lot of them too, fine rifles like the 760, 7600, 742, 7400, 1100, 11 87's, 870's. a whole list of 22 rim fires and more.

Might just as well throw in the 700, 788 and model 7, plus the earely muzzle loaders and that series had the same trigger.

Sorry I brought it up. if there is a mod just delete the whole thread.


Al
 

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Why hide mechanical reality from the shooting public? Just look at it!
BTW- take M788 off your list. That gun has a safe trigger. Add the 11-48. It was the first RCFC.
29 million of them is the last number I heard.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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742s were pretty much garbage, from the get-go. They would batter themselves to death in a few hundred rounds, generally. So I wouldn't put them in the category of "fine rifles" by any means. Avoids problems dealing with the RCFC system I suppose ;)

Remington .22 rimfires, as far as I know, did not use the same system. The 511 in my safe is far different than the 870 or 1100.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I can pull the trigger group from my Remington 22lr pump and stick it place of the one I took out of my Remington slugger 20ga.

I tried it to get a lighter trigger pull for the slugger.

Also there are a lot of people who have 742's and love them. My friend is one of those people.


Al
 

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Trigger groups don't interchange between models because the feed mechanisms are different, but the trigger design and operation is identical: The sear is separate from the trigger and not under control of the safety. You'll see a big difference in the size and shape of the hammers because the bolts are different sizes, but the hammers operate exactly the same.

I've been taking guns apart since I was six years old (successful reassembly started later). The RCFC can literally be taken from the gun with a rusty nail. Punch out the two pins and LOOK at it. The 'safety' keeps the trigger from pulling, it does not keep the gun from firing.
Don't let the hammer fly forward when testing it. Sheet metal parts are fragile.
Cock the hammer and put the safety ON to reassemble.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Didn't realize the RCFC was in any .22s, thanks for the info. There are certainly plenty of Rem .22s (I'm much more familiar with the little bolt guns) that don't have it.

I think some forum members aren't entirely clear on what a 'design defect' is. Let's use a non-gun example, to eliminate brand loyalty, gun politics, etc.:

Say you had been one of the space shuttle astronauts up to 1985 or 1986. Were there design defects in the booster rocket o-rings? Of course not, all the previous missions came home safely! Who would have thought such a stupid thing?!?!?!?!? There was never a problem before, so therefore, no defect could exist.

But if you ask the family members of the last Challenger crew, if there were design defects that unfortunately became quite obvious on the day of launch; you may well get a different answer.

THAT's what a 'design defect' is. Part of the object, that can fail in an unexpected way, without warning. Unfortunately - Remington makes some otherwise useful products, with horrible trigger designs. I have both an 870 and 1100; have taken apart many of the same, and am always appalled by the sheer amount of filth that tends to accumulate in the trigger groups, when gun owners don't drop the trigger group from time to time and dump them out. Likewise, my handy little 6mm, got a Timney trigger as soon as I took the Walker trigger apart, and LOOKED at it, with all the loose parts flopping around in the housing.
 
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Thanks Mike, Guns are strange in that when they 'fail' they shoot! Most things stop working when they 'fail', but guns work when they're not supposed to. That is also a failure. Of course the operator can have a failure which affects the gun, too. Operator failure is much more common.

I am in a rather unique position. I have to answer gun questions under oath. That's different from being a gunsmith or gun sales person or an internet poster. Under Federal Rules of Procedure, I can give an expert opinion, but it is probed for hours for defects under oath.
Mechanisms that are 'uncertain' in operation are subject to failure. The separate sear of the RCFC and the connector inside the Walker makes those mechanisms 'uncertain' in operation. Those internal parts can fail to stay in their place and cause the gun to fire, but show no evidence of having failed. Nothing is broken, bent or has remained dislocated.

Can these mechanisms cause the gun to fire without a trigger pull? Of course they can, there's nothing to stop it. That's unique in gun designs. Most are designed to 'fail safe' just like air brakes. If they fire, it's because either the trigger was pulled or something broke. A broken part could be a defect in materials. If either defect is present in a product, the manufacturer is obligated to 'Warn' the customer. We've all seen them.

Some guns are not as infallible as most shooters seem to believe and that's the misconception I'm trying to correct in the interest of gun safety and continuation of the sport. 28 million guns that can fire with the safety ON by being dropped is, to me, a significant safety hazard. Even if it only happens one time in the estimated BILLION shots a year those guns are shot, it's too many, because a better design, which Remington owns, disallows that single failure. Without the uncertainty, it cant' happen.
Why are the 'uncertainties' there? It's cheaper that way.

Remington Model 572 and 552 (pump and auto) have the RCFC. It works just like old fashioned fridge doors and car doors. A General Motors engineer invented it. (L.R. Crittendon)
 
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