[James Gates]

Friends All....I am posting this here and leave it up to you to put it where you want it!
I am now testing various "slugs" in a Hasting 12 ga. barrel for some people in Europe. For over a hundred years the European shooters has killed game in the Hirsch class (about like our elk) with shotguns using rifled slugs. Now, there is a growing interest over there in "rifled" barrels. They, unlike the American hunter, have no use for pistol bullets in sabots!
At present the two most promising slugs are the Lyman 12 ga. 1 1/16 oz. "Hourglass" and the Lee 1 oz. "Key" slug. Both are designed to be loaded in a plastic shot cup.
Now to the nitty gritty...all of the published slug data is aimed at their use in "smoothbore" barrels (unless stated otherwise) and many of these loads will be borderline high pressure in rifled barrels and slugs running 21+/- bhn. This, of course, is due to the resistance in a rifled barrel. I would suggest reducing the load by 5% when using the hard cast slugs in rifled barrels.
These new heavy hard cast slugs are very much like rifle loads even if they are shot on shotguns. Regular soft lead rifled slugs will lead a rifled barrel quite bad. After the first tests, I have become convienced these hard cast slugs in rifled barrels open a new door in big game hunting!
Best Regards, James C. Gates

 

[ribbonstone]

Interresting....will give it some thought.

Brother bought one of those rifled 12ga. Browning A-bolts that were sold some time back, and it impressed me with its accruacy (but not it's handling...pretty much as handy as the varmit weight bolt action it resembles).
Haven't had any problems with the killing power using the saboted slugs (he prefers the all copper Remingtons) but havent gone after any really big game either.

 

[Fireplug]

James Gates,

Your new project sounds very interesting. Please, keep us here informed.

Have you or anyone tried slugs of normal or near normal bullet shape. The bullets for the old "Paradox" guns had bullets that looked much like oversized round nosed soft points for handguns.

Fireplug

 

[James Gates]

Yes, we are planning to order a mold of my design that will have a better ballistic shape with a meplat just larger than a shotshell primer. It will have a crimp groove as well as lube grooves. One can load it in the 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" brass shotshell hull in 3" chambered gun....or load it in a plastic hull (roll crimped). By using the Styro wads I have developed for space and a Ballistic Products X12X over powder wad....one would near duplicate the old Paradox round. With the slug/bullet cast hard it will be quite a deadly round.....James C. Gates

 

[DocRob]

Mr. Gates, Interesting work. Here in Ohio we are limited to shotgun slugs instead of high power rifles for deer hunting. I used to use Winchester's BRI slug. It was an hour glass shape 1 oz. lead slug in a plastic sabot. It shot very accurately out of my Browning A-5 that I put a hasting rifled barrel on. I can get 21/2-3 inch groups at a hundred yards with this combo. The problem I had with this load is it would shoot clear through the chest of our whitetails with very little to no expansion. Solid hits to the chest would leave virtually no blood trails and the deer would often run several hundred yards through our typical thick cover before dying. Many of the deer I shot I only found after crisscrossing through the thickets/woods. They were always dead but no blood trail. I regret to say I have not always been able to find a deer that I know my shot was a good shot. My faith in solid lead slugs in a shotgun, at least Winchester's sabot design, is not too good. I now use Remington's solid copper sabot. Accuracy is near the same but I get a much better blood trail. Also they do not seem to go as far before dying. Now I also try to take a shoulder out when I shoot. Maybe this would of helped with the solid lead sabots but I don't always seem to hit a shoulder on every deer. I like a good blood trail. Just my experience. I would be interested in your input. Thanks, Rob

 

[James Gates]

Rob....While I was with Smith & Wesson Ammo Company, we made the BRI slug. We had two versions....a hard cast one and a soft one. Both, of course, were .50 caliber. The soft one expanded will in tests on deer in North Georgia.....but, the sabots pinched some through at the thin place of the hourglass. There is a great deal of difference betwen the frontal area (meplat area)of the .50" cal slug and my .73" cliber slug.
My European contacts want a slug for much heavier game than deer and like the penetration of the heavy .73".....our tests show that permanent wound channel is a product of Meplant Area and Velocity.
By the way, your experience quoted matches our findings in tests, but we have dogs trained to trail up wounded game. The problem of lack of blood trail is a major problem on our large Spanish Boar Hogs. The fat seals up very quick....James C. Gates

 

[Marshall Stanton]

Friend James,

It's great to see your post on the forums! I've missed your sage input and your company sorely these last several months. Thanks so much for the update with your current project, and I'm sure that there's an ample following for this type of shotgun shell development amongst the membership here on the forums.

I took the liberty of moving this thread to the Shotguns forum so that the information presented here doesn't get lost in the archives of the general discussion threads.

Thanks again, and it's good to hear from you my friend!

God Bless,

Marshall

 

[leadbutt]

Kind of sounds like an article I read of Ross S's, he was buliding a single shot on a rolling block and useing brass 20 ga shells

 

[James Gates]

Marshall and All....I didn't read the article on a Rem. RB in 20 ga., however it may be an interesting project, but has no application to the work we are doing.
Marshall...The 12 ga. and 20 ga. Lymam "Hourglass" slugs you sent down tested extremely well in smoothbores. The large mepalt does cause large wound channels. The problem with that design in rifled barrels is the small amount of bearing surface engaging the rifled lands and grooves when in the wad's shotcup. The same problem exists with a .690" round ball. The Lee "Key" slug's longer bearing surface gives better accuracy, but not as good a wound channel. The Foster type soft lead slugs lead up the rifled barrels badly. hat is absoluely amazing is the penetration both slugs give when cast out of wheelweight metal!
While the American shooter leans toward sabot type slugs for deer size game, the European shooter has little use for them.
If there is an interest, I will continue to report on our progress in this project. However, I am not remotely interested in any arguement on one design over the other If one is now using and killing with some present factory offering, satisfied with its results, then by all means keep using it.....James C, Gates

 

[MikeG]

Keep it coming, I have been thinking of reloading some slugs for several years, but never got past the thinking stage. Part of the problem has been lack of information from the field, other than what gets reported in the hunting magazines (and you know how they NEVER have anything less than perfect performance).

So I would certainly be interested in a Beartooth slug offering, if you can come up with a useful design.

 

[loader]

Great thread -

Lightfield has an "impact discarding sabot" in 3 inch 12 guage. The slig is about .69 caliber, and is housed in a very thin plactic sabot that stays with the slug until impact. Meplat is .50 and the 1 & 1/16th OZ slug does 1800 fps. The sabot is almost like a patch, and prevents the leading problem, but there is still a large cross section and meplat.

 

[leadbutt]

James keep it coming,we are alowed slugs in some counties here in VA. Knowledge is never a waste

 

[Gowge]

Brass Shells & .73" Slugs?

Whoa! I wanna' see some of those! 20ga - .620" too! How 'bout posting some pics or email them to me and I'll post'em up and share them here.... I had something very similar in mind recently, but couldn't find the right 'bullet' design in a slug....

Have a safe trip, James!!

Rob....While I was with Smith & Wesson Ammo Company, we made the BRI slug. We had two versions....a hard cast one and a soft one. Both, of course, were .50 caliber. The soft one expanded will in tests on deer in North Georgia.....but, the sabots pinched some through at the thin place of the hourglass. There is a great deal of difference betwen the frontal area (meplat area)of the .50" cal slug and my .73" cliber slug.
My European contacts want a slug for much heavier game than deer and like the penetration of the heavy .73".....our tests show that permanent wound channel is a product of Meplant Area and Velocity.
By the way, your experience quoted matches our findings in tests, but we have dogs trained to trail up wounded game. The problem of lack of blood trail is a major problem on our large Spanish Boar Hogs. The fat seals up very quick....James C. Gates

 

[Krag1899]

Just in from the range. I tested three different slugs using my Remington 1100 20Ga with fully rifled barrel. Remington 1oz BuckHammers, Remington Copper Solids and Remington Core Lokt Bonded Sabot. If you would like to see the grouping on a Shoot-N-See target send me an email request at [email protected]. The shots were all fired from a benchrest at 50yds. File was too big for this site.

 

[James Gates]

Interesting to see this four year old post come to the surface! Since thing many, many things have happened, to say the least!
Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com) has been up and running for 36 months now and we can't keep up with the orders.
Our entire concept is just a take-off of Beartooth Bullet's concept.......just bigger hard cast heat treated slug/bullets.
Everything you all have found with hard cast handgun bullets, penetration, tissue damage, Meplat Area, velocity, etc,....still applies to our line of ammo.
The exception to the rule is our Tri-Ball II loads for smoothbores. It is three-.600" hard cast round balls in a heavy duty wad.......a super buckshot load!
We are also making a special target load for the ASSA (American Slug Shooters Asso.)
I would like to invite all of you to drop over to our updated web page and look around.......Regards To All, James