Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have been tinkering with the idea of a rifle chambered for a rimmed, straight-walled .30 cal with more case capacity than the 30 carbine. Something with a COAL like 2" or so, maybe 2.25. I guess I'd imagine it could handle grain weights from 90-150, maybe bigger.

Does a cartridge or wildcat like this already exist? The closest thing I can find is 7.62x38r Nagant, a sort of proprietary Russian revolver load from the M1895 revolver. Everything I'm seeing looks like you can still find these revolvers, and the ammo for them fairly easily. But I don't really see any reliable information on saami or CIP pressures to help judge feasibility. Additionally that cartridge has a peculiar shape at the end of the case (part of it's operation as a revolver with no cylinder gap. If you haven't read about it, look it up, it's pretty interesting) that really precludes it from being as useful as a test case for wildcatting or what have you.

What are your thoughts? Anybody out there ever given any thought to something like this?

Also, I don't have a specific *why*; If I did, I'm sure an already existing cartridge would be the answer. It's just a curiosity that struck me.

Thanks for taking the time!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
Welcome to Shooters Forum, Rob. :)

Does a wildcat "like" that already exist? Normally I would say, if you can dream it up, it's already been done. This notion, however, might actually be unique because, well, it's not a very good one.

Folks who had a revolver in 30 Carbine discovered startling levels of muzzle blast and decided that round was best left to a longer Contender barrel, or the original US 30 Carbine, itself. An even longer cartridge, with more powder capacity, and still stuck in the short barrel of a revolver, is contraindicated.

When you need more bullet weight and velocity from a cartridge, you go to a larger diameter, shouldered design, and you run it in a carbine or rifle length barrel. Even when you go in-between those two, you do it with a Contender, Encore or XP-100. Rounds like the 30 Herrett and 309 JDJ come to mind.

Like so many things in life, if something doesn't exist, there's usually a really good reason for it. ;)

Hope to see your thoughts and comments around the forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,956 Posts
Robswat, the closest factory cartridge I can think of is the 32-40. Bullet diameter is .320, I think, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
If you are willing to spend the money.....?
You could get close to what you're looking for by starting with a 222 Rem. rimmed case and expand it up to 30 cal.
If you didn't like the small shoulder, you could simply taper the case to be 'almost' straight sided, but again, more money involved in reamers and dies.
I assume you have a particular action that requires a rim, otherwise a 300 Whisper/Blackout, 300 HAM'R, or 30-223 would be a less expensive alternative to get the same kind of performance.

P.S. Thinking more about it, have you thought about starting with a 32 H & R or 32 Federal case tightened up just a little bit for the .308" bullet, pretty close 'as is'?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,472 Posts
Per a search on "Ammoguide Interactive" the 6x70R is a possible 'parent' for the OP desired wildcat.
Ammoguide interactive Drawing 718 shows it has a rim width of .417", thickness of .054".
The overall case length is 2.748" with the 'shoulder at 2.323".
Body diameter at the top of rim is .351" and diameter at the shoulder is ..301".

This case could be expanded to take a .308" bullet and be fire-formed to a straight wall, shouldered, or slightly tapered wall cartridge.
Yes the case bottom diameter is slightly smaller than the Carbine case but the possible length could make up for the difference in overall powder volume.
As already suggested this is not a design suitable for a short barrel or Revolver use.

Best Regards,
Chev. william
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
Todd,
I believe the 30 Reece (and similar siblings) are bottle necked when formed, where he is looking for a straight walled case.
Considering the 32 pistol series, i.e. 32 Short, Long, H & R mag. and Federal have a bore of .312", you could probably seat a .308"-.310" bullet by sizing in standard dies and using a .308" expander button. That would give him an inexpensive solution to his 'wants'. I've got a 32 H & R Single Six, so I have all the components, I'll have to give that a try.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
I know the 32 Federal is shorter (30MM, 1.200") than he wants and I'm not sure why the desire for a straight wall? He may be better off with a 30 Herret.
At any rate, if for no other reason than checking out my theory, I went downstairs and found that .308" Sierra 85 grain Round nose and Speer 100 grain Plinkers would not slip into 32 H & R cases that had been fired (and not resized) in my Single Six. So, you could make a 'short 30' on 32 H & R Mag. or 32 Federal cases 'on the cheap', might make a nice cast bullet gun....or, you could just leave it a 32 and shoot bullets .004" larger and have a 'modern 32-20!;)
I then tried chambering both fired and loaded 32 H & R cases in my 30 Carbine Blackhawk, and both dropped right into the cylinder, Yes, I know better and would not fire 32 H & R in the #0 Carbine Blackhawk....it was for the purpose of 'learning'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
yes, i know. the .308" straight wall case is basically a 30 carbine, which he doesn't want. going to a shoulder design, which broom_jm says, makes sense. the 32 mag also makes sense too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
i've found this, but the author has gone to a better place

shooting/making 30-20


dang it, now i have .308" on my brain!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
The 222 Remington, or Magnum version thereof, blown out straight makes a 35 caliber opening. I know this because one of our members, David White, (ASSASSIN) has built one that is basically the 357 Super Maximum. The only way you could make that into a straight-walled 30-caliber round is by introducing an awful lot of case taper...which is NO BUENO in a revolver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
but he says rifle.........
 
  • Like
Reactions: 60DRB

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
Per a search on "Ammoguide Interactive" the 6x70R is a possible 'parent' for the OP desired wildcat.
Ammoguide interactive Drawing 718 shows it has a rim width of .417", thickness of .054".
The overall case length is 2.748" with the 'shoulder at 2.323".
Body diameter at the top of rim is .351" and diameter at the shoulder is ..301".
Best Regards,
Chev. william
That is quite the cartridge, looks like a pencil. Originally intended as a 'Drilling cartridge' (?).



https://www.google.com/search?q=6x70+R+cartridge&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWyvns35_mAhVRPq0KHSESCF8QsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=vQe8MDXfWmhvgM:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
To all,

Thanks so much for the suggestions. You guys are quick!

As I stated above, obviously existing shouldered calibers make more sense, are easy to find etc. This is just a mental exercise.

The 6x70r seems pretty good, but wow it's expensive. I would have to spend quite a bit just to get together a little brass.

The 3030 Wesson looks exactly like what I'm imagining. Are any modern guns chambered in this, or cases available? I know it was an older cartridge.

Honestly what I had in mind was something like an h&r handi rifle, firing a 308 cal bullet in a rimmed, relatively straight wall cartridge that can headspace off the rim. Seemed like something that would be easy and fun to work loads up on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
To all,

Thanks so much for the suggestions. You guys are quick!

As I stated above, obviously existing shouldered calibers make more sense, are easy to find etc. This is just a mental exercise.

The 6x70r seems pretty good, but wow it's expensive. I would have to spend quite a bit just to get together a little brass.

The 3030 Wesson looks exactly like what I'm imagining. Are any modern guns chambered in this, or cases available? I know it was an older cartridge.

Honestly what I had in mind was something like an h&r handi rifle, firing a 308 cal bullet in a rimmed, relatively straight wall cartridge that can headspace off the rim. Seemed like something that would be easy and fun to work loads up on.
Are you working on a rifle for hunting in states with a straight-wall requirement? If so, the challenge is making a straight-walled cartridge long enough to shoot 30-caliber bullets fast enough to be suitable for medium-sized big game. Your best bet would be to use the light-for-caliber bullets designed for the 300 Blackout and drive them as hard as you can with a cartridge that looks like a stretched 30 Carbine.

Personally, I think that's a wild goose chase and would pursue something like the 350 Legend, 357 Maximum or 375 Winchester. At hunting distances, those are all perfectly adequate and have nominal recoil. To get the same kind of effectiveness out of a straight-walled 30-caliber cartridge, it would have to be really long and skinny...you could call it the "Marlboro 30", because that's about the shape it would have. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
To all,

Thanks so much for the suggestions. You guys are quick!

As I stated above, obviously existing shouldered calibers make more sense, are easy to find etc. This is just a mental exercise.

The 6x70r seems pretty good, but wow it's expensive. I would have to spend quite a bit just to get together a little brass.

The 3030 Wesson looks exactly like what I'm imagining. Are any modern guns chambered in this, or cases available? I know it was an older cartridge.

Honestly what I had in mind was something like an h&r handi rifle, firing a 308 cal bullet in a rimmed, relatively straight wall cartridge that can headspace off the rim. Seemed like something that would be easy and fun to work loads up on.

i don't about modern rifles but PTG has a reamer.

PTG Chamber Reamer: .30-30 Wesson
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
Found some information on a 300 Sherwood.

Brass is a available. It is quite a bit short of your goal of 2".
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top