[Rocca2506]

Hey all,
Ive been searching this forum but cant find what I'm looking for.
I've always loaded some type of HP's in my .40 and .44 mag. for plinking/ practice. (Black Talons for home defence/ CCW.)
Anyway, I just recently became a member of Frontsight in Nevada and they require factory FMJ's when shooting at their ranges. I would like to duplicate a factory load with my reloads but before I do I was wondering if there is any noticable difference in the accuracy of FN vs RN slugs.

I've also had a terrible time finding bulk 155gr FMJ's of any kind at a reasonable price. I did finally find this:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/556
But id be interested to know of any other similar suppliers.

I am also interested in .40 cal accuracy loads for other competitions where I can shoot ANY bullet I like. I've narrowed my powder down to 231, bullseye, and AA#5. The goal is to have an accurate round with minimal recoil to stay on target. I currently shoot a Glock 23 and Baretta 96F.

Thinking about getting a 1911 in .45 for these matches also.
Thanks for any help/ tips,
Rodney

 

[stinky]

I'm not sure what you are asking...but, a RN and a SWC, and a JSP, TC, and JHP all shoot about the same....especially for plinking accuracy.

 

[Rocca2506]

That is part of what I was asking. Thanks.
Flat Nose vs Round nose. I couldn't see that there would be much difference at the close ranges you shoot pistol at but I thought Id ask just in case.

 

[jwp475]

The squareness and precision with the base of a bullet will have a far greater effect on accuracy than weather or not the bullet has a flat or round nose shape

 

[Rocca2506]

How about the Hollow base rounds? any experience with these?

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/20985

 

[Rocca2506]

ive also heard the crimping method is more important than the bullet used.

 

[JPaulF]

For what it's worth, I have a reloader who provides me with flat-tip copper plated bullets in a standard .45acp load. If there's an accuracy consideration, it certainly isn't noticeable out to 20 yards. I also carry them in the CCW guns. In our tests, they flatten out substantially and maintain nearly 100% of their weight. In appearance, they are shaped like ball ammo with the tip flattened and they feed in the 1911's just like ball ammo. They are a different beast from semi-wadcutters.

 

[Marshal Kane]

...but, a RN and a SWC, and a JSP, TC, and JHP all shoot about the same....especially for plinking accuracy.

+1 on this. You'd have to do some very careful testing to find any appreciable differences in accuracy. Be aware that you may have very accurate ammunition as well as accurate guns but the bottom line is how accurately does the shooter shoot? The shooter is a BIG part of the accuracy equation.

 

[Marshal Kane]

How about the Hollow base rounds? any experience with these?

This is an interesting question. While I have NOT shot any hollow base jacketed ammunition, I have shot hollow base wadcutter lead target ammunition in .38 S&W Special for years. The .38 HBWC is designed to expand to fill the bore for best accuracy using light powder charges and does so very well. My guess is that hollow base jacketed ammunition would require a heavier powder charge in order to upset the base sufficiently to fill the bore. So if you're concerned about quick recovery time to get back on target, you'd want to shoot light recoiling ammunition (if your match rules allow it) rather than full charge loads which negates the use of the hollow base bullet. Personally, I'd skip the jacketed hollow base if they cost more than the conventional flat or beveled base bullets as IMO there would be no appreciable difference in accuracy for all practical purposes.

 

[Marshal Kane]

ive also heard the crimping method is more important than the bullet used.

While it's important to have a good uniform crimp, IMO a good bullet backed by a good shooter is far more important accuracywise. Crimps can vary all the way from where they buckle the case to no crimp at all. So where is the "sweet spot" in a crimp that gives you the best accuracy? I have been reloading since 1963 and have yet to discover the answer. Some will say that for best accuracy to always crimp as a separate operation after seating the bullet. They may be right but the improvement would only show up with the gun clamped into a Ransom rest. The difference would not be like "night vs. day". Just my dos centavos, YMMV and replies to the contrary welcomed.

 

[Rocca2506]

This is an interesting question. While I have NOT shot any hollow base jacketed ammunition, I have shot hollow base wadcutter lead target ammunition in .38 S&W Special for years. The .38 HBWC is designed to expand to fill the bore for best accuracy using light powder charges and does so very well. My guess is that hollow base jacketed ammunition would require a heavier powder charge in order to upset the base sufficiently to fill the bore. So if you're concerned about quick recovery time to get back on target, you'd want to shoot light recoiling ammunition (if your match rules allow it) rather than full charge loads which negates the use of the hollow base bullet. Personally, I'd skip the jacketed hollow base if they cost more than the conventional flat or beveled base bullets as IMO there would be no appreciable difference in accuracy for all practical purposes.

From what Ive read the hollow base isnt meant to expand to fill the chamber but to make the bullet longer. Essentialy making a 155gr .40 bullet the same length as the 180gr.

Thanks for allyour input Marshal

 

[jwp475]

From what Ive read the hollow base isnt meant to expand to fill the chamber but to make the bullet longer. Essentialy making a 155gr .40 bullet the same length as the 180gr.

Thanks for allyour input Marshal

Marshall has it correct about the hollow base

 

[Rocca2506]

What Marshal says may be true for lead bullets but Ive read more on these berry bullets and the consensous is that the base has a thicker wall that doesnt expand.... so I kept looking...until I founf this on another forum from Berry MFG.

"Berry's Hollow Base Bullets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes the idea of the hollow base bullet is to increase the flat bearing surface. We initially started with the .45 as a hollow base. The 230gr bullet has been one of the most accurate .45 bullets in most of the guns on the market. We took the 230RN and hollow based it bring it to a 185gr bullet. The results were very positive and has become one of our top sellers. We moved the idea to include a .40 155gr that is based on the profile of a 180gr, and now have a 9mm 124gr that is the same profile as the 147gr. I have that bullet on my desk as I write as a prototype. We took this one one step farther and have added another .006" plating as well. We are running the cost numbers now and are testing in the tunnel for accuracy. It is a really nice looking bullet, I hope to add it to the lineup at this years SHOT Show. As far as the 380 100gr Hollow Base, it is a great bullet for those short barrelled carry guns.
__________________
Jay R. Phillips
Berry's MFG
www.berrysmfg.com/products.aspx?n=5795
July 14, 2010,

 

[jwp475]

First of for a spin stabilized bullet the more weight in the rear of the nullet the better, this is an undisputable fact. Secound yes a hollow based bullet will obturate with less pressure than a flat based. The smart money says that the Berry bullet do indeed obturate.

The marketing BS is interesting, but none this is new, it has all been tried before

 

[unclenick]

Hard to say. In general, the shorter the bullet, the better it is stabilized by a given twist rate. An interesting example is the .32 HBWC. A test done with commercial loads of .32 S&W Long WC ammo (the International centerfire pistol standard round) found that faster twist than the standard 18 3/4" did better. Groups got tighter until about 12" twist, then they opened back up again when faster than that. You'd think the extra spin would throw the skirt out centrifugally, and the traditional spin shows being good enough on a twist calculator, but, the long bullet may need long range to go to sleep with the traditional twist rate, and the 12" would certainly make that happen a lot sooner.

All I can think with the Berry's, assuming their tests are valid, is that the greater bearing surface lets the bullet straighten itself better in the bore and perhaps even just tip less in a case when loaded? I know I have never been able to get 185 grain .45's to shoot quite as precisely as 200 grain bullets do. The little high speed 155 grain bullets I tried once proved impossible to get good grouping with. So, something's going on with short bearing surface. At least, I think that's what it is.


Rocca2506,

Check your range rules. Berry's bullets are plated, not jacketed, like commercial cartridges use. I assume airborne lead is their concern, and Berry's should be fine for that, but if they have some other reason the difference might matter to them.

In general, also note that plated bullets use lead bullet loads and not jacketed bullet loads. The plated copper is a good bit softer than the gilding metal jackets are made from, and they upset more easily at high pressure, which can cause the pressure of maximum jacketed bullet powder charges to go even higher and become excessive in some guns.

 

[ironhead7544]

I would expect no difference in accuracy between the two at match shooing ranges. The RN might feed better but its best to test for this. All guns are different so you may find a particular load that will give the best accuracy for your individual piece.

 

[Rocca2506]

In general, also note that plated bullets use lead bullet loads and not jacketed bullet loads.

Thanks Unclenick. I was NOT aware of that fact. Thats a bummer.

I'm having a terrible time finding 155gr. fully jacketed rounds. I can get 180gr FMJ Flat nose for 109.00 / 1000 but I cant find anything even close for 155gr.

These berrys are pretty much worthless if I cant load them to match my defence rounds. Maybe I'll just switch to 180 gr rounds for my .40.

 

[unclenick]

You can still load the soft bullets pretty fast. Elmer Keith developed the .44 Magnum using 16:1 lead:tin cast alloy, which is probably softer than the plating on the Berry's, but harder than their swaged cores. The main thing is not to count on the same loads that are safe with jacketed bullets to be safe with the softer ones. You'll just have to work the load up while watching for pressure signs. You may end up with a different powder.

This outfit has .40 cal 155 grain FMJ's at about $130/1000.