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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The below is a News Story about Accidental Shooting Occurrences
among Trained LEO involving "Newly Adopted" Handguns.

"New gun blamed for rise in LA County deputy shootings
The Associated Press
Updated: 06/14/2015 01:42:47 PM EDT

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The number of accidental shootings by Los Angeles County
sheriff's deputies has more than doubled in two years as the department switches
to a new handgun.

There were 12 accidental discharges of weapons in 2012 and 30 last year — most
of which involved the new gun, the Los Angeles Times reported
(Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies
follows new firearm - LA Times
).

In October, a deputy tripped over a stroller and fired a bullet through the wall of a
house in Huntington Park. Last November, a deputy in Lancaster shot himself in
the thigh while pulling his gun. In December, a deputy in Compton accidentally
pulled the trigger on his gun as he approached a suspected stolen car and a bullet
hit the door. Nobody was in the car, however.

The inspector general of the Sheriff's Department is investigating the increase in
accidental firings. But sheriff's officials attribute the increase to the learning curve
for the new weapon, the Smith & Wesson M&P9.

The semi-automatic gun is made from a lightweight polymer, doesn't have a safety
lever and requires less pressure to pull the trigger than the Beretta 92F, a heavier
gun the department has used for two decades.

"The vast majority were people trained on the Beretta," Assistant Sheriff Todd Rogers
said. "There is a correlation, no doubt about it."

About half of sworn personnel now use the Smith & Wesson.

So far, there have been seven accidents this year, and five have involved the new gun.
Advertisement

Officials said they expect the number of accidental firings to fall off as deputies
become used to the weapon. The department also has imposed extra training requirements.

The switch was prompted, in part, by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had
failed the Sheriff's Academy, the Times said.

Because of its easier pull, the Smith & Wesson is easier to shoot accurately and its
hand grip comes in three sizes, making it easier to use for people with small hands.

With the advent of the new weapon, deputies are obtaining better scores at the firing
range and more recruits are passing the firearms test. The percentage of women recruits
who failed that test has fallen from 6.4 percent to less than 1 percent, the Times said.

The Los Angeles Police Department has used a similar gun, a Glock, since 2005. It recently
began issuing M&Ps, said Lt. Dana Berns, who heads the firearms and tactics section.
No problems are expected because of the similarities of the weapons, he said."

It seems Even Trained LEO can Err with this firearm when transitioning from a
'Heavier/different Trigger' pull firearm.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

(Edited to Reduce Display Width from its original condition. Chev. William)
 

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Chapter Five Unsafe by Design?
 

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The M&P series is basically a Glock on the inside. I will say the M&P has a much more "mushy" trigger than the standard Glock. There is also no way for the Smith to bang when drawn unless the trigger is pulled. If they were fine with the Glock they should be fine with the Smith. Just my opinion.
M&P


Glock
 

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But the police held the opinion that the Glock was unsafe which is it not and neither is the M&P. They must just learn the workings of the pistol. It is NOT a DA revolver, will someone tell them?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
A Person Who has NOT fired either a Glock or a S&W M&P9 Speaking here:

It Seems that BOTH the Glock and the S&W share Design and Manufacturing details
that MAY reduce their Safety of use WHEN a Shooter is Transitioning to them form a
Different Design handgun, be it a Wheel gun or a Semi-Automatic.

The Photos Walt45 included appear to show some 'ease of Manufacture' Stamped parts
Which also Seem to show bending in service, possibly just the View of the photos.

IF the parts are in tension when being Actuated, they would tend to 'straighten and
lengthen' at the same time.
Conversely, if they are loaded in Compression when being actuated,
they would tend 'bow and shorten' at the same time.
Either can lead to a None Crisp Trigger Feel.

Again, just my own inexperienced opinion.

My own Semi-automatic pistol experience is limited to M1911A1 Colt
"Clones" from about 1945 to 1965 era. One U.S.& S. Marked M1911,
a Colt Marked M1911 (Both CMP Purchased Post WW2), and various
Service Armory Colt M1911A1s during my Active Duty Time.

My Father and I both Shot in Club Competitions long ago now.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

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... a deputy tripped over a stroller and fired a bullet through the wall ...
A finger was on the trigger.

... a deputy in Lancaster shot himself in the thigh while pulling his gun...
A finger was on the trigger.

... a deputy in Compton accidentally pulled the trigger on his gun ...
A finger was on the trigger.

~~~

Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, 'Off Target, Off Trigger'.
 

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Something wrong with the lay-out here

Cannot quote. But:

Yes MainSpring, indeed. Nothing what so-ever wrong with the Glock and S&W M&P. Thousands of those shoot tens of thousands of rounds under pressure of practice and competitions like ICPS every day witn not a reported self-injury or auto-fire or shooting another competitor.

Real shooters know their firearms technically inside out, and when to finger the trigger and when not. One wonders what the policemen in qustion will do with a hammer let down on a single action...

JBelk: My friend, there is NO "unsafe by design" on either of these pistols, Jack.
 

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Please don't misquote the book or even leave such a false notion. I've never called the Glockenstiens unsafe by design. Let me quote from page 90. (that sounds harsh but just hurried.)

"The family of 'safe/inert' guns has been divided and seriously degraded by design, and that genie will not be put back in the bottle. Some so-called 'inert-safe' guns can now be fired by toddlers, dogs, and even by trying to catch them to keep them from falling. This is the result of simply lightening the amount of pressure needed to 'operate' the gun. Sure, they're more accurate to fire with a seven pound pull, but your cat can supply that by jumping off of it (Yes, I know the case). The fifteen pound dividing line is real. [referring to old DA Rev 'standards'] "

Is any of that inaccurate? Out of date? Untrue or unproven by example?

It hurts me deep inside when I hear of another toddler shooting himself or somebody, or a falling gun or even a carelessly handled gun hurting somebody. That is not at all normal in the sphere of inadvertent discharges by gravity or kid.

It is UN natural to NOT feel the trigger if you might REALLY need your gun. Look at old FBI training films. So, the question becomes, Are we to the point those not TRAINED have no Second Amendment rights? That's where it's going. Most people seat their wallet (in jeans) with more than some DA auto trigger pull pressure. The notion of training your finger to not go near the trigger when it's the trigger you're going to be SURE to find early in the fight and try not to lose control of it, would be considered ridiculous to the general public. Training away what is semi-innate is very difficult for cops. The public is mostly lost in the details or just don't care. To shoot a gun, you pull the trigger is 'the rule of Nature' to me.
BTW- I've refused about thirty Glockenstein cases and worked three for no charge. I got paid on a Walther PPS case and made a very well known, rich and famous lawyer sputtering mad because I wouldn't go along with his 'LEO guns need training before civilians can buy them' theory of a Glock killing a kid. Page 97. I refused to go along with that argument (and several others that are ultimately anti-Second.)

In this political season we're going to see more and more phony crap *perceived* to be brilliant. Perception is said to be 90% of 'facts' with the general public. Guns are (again) getting a reputation of individual evil and that is the prybar the antis have used against us to good effect in the past. The *perception* is that something is different or accelerating because shooting by short-light DA autos are in the news about once a week. That is something new.

When you shout TRAIN TRIGGER CONTROL to the public and they just read about the police chief moving a Glock out of the bed and shooting his wife and ask, 'How much more training do you need? Something is WRONG'. That puts us at risk and why I took the long time to answer, because it IS important to get the argument right because I AM on your side.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Mainspring,
When did a "Properly Maintained and Loaded" Colt Single Action Army Fail to Fire? Is it SAFE to carry with Six in the Cylinder, especially if you are Riding a Horse?
Is a WW2 Era M1911 or M1911A1 Safe to Carry with a full Mag and one in the Chamber? Will it fire when being pulled from the Military Holsters IF Properly Carried?
Why Does a MODERN design pistol discharge 'inadvertently' when properly carried But Drawn in Time of Need?
What has Changed from John Moses Browning to Modern Designers in the Choices of Design "features" and "Safety Applications"?

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

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When did a "Properly Maintained and Loaded" Colt Single Action Army Fail to Fire?
I have no access to records with that particular information.

"Properly Maintained and Loaded"? It should fire with proper ammunition that is in good condition, and the firearm is operated as intended.

Is it SAFE to carry with Six in the Cylinder, especially if you are Riding a Horse?
Yes. Riding a horse should not be the cause of a malfunction, nor cause the firearm to become unsafe.

Is a WW2 Era M1911 or M1911A1 Safe to Carry with a full Mag and one in the Chamber?
Yes, if used properly, properly maintained, and carried properly.

Will it fire when being pulled from the Military Holsters IF Properly Carried?
"Properly Carried" has no bearing on whether or not the firearm is properly used or manipulated.

Why Does a MODERN design pistol discharge 'inadvertently' when properly carried But Drawn in Time of Need?
Because the shooter 'inadvertently' pulled the trigger.

What has Changed from John Moses Browning to Modern Designers in the Choices of Design "features" and "Safety Applications"?
"Choices"? I cannot speak for any of the "Modern Designers". I would guess that patent rights held by others, patent rights available to the designer and modern manufacturing methods and materials are all contributing factors.
 

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The Beretta has a heavy DA pull right from the holster, the S&W does not.

The officers that are now having AD's had their finger on the trigger when they had the Beretta's, but the heavy pull prevented the gun from firing with the amount of pressure applied to the trigger by the officer, whereas the same amount of applied pressure does fire the S&W.

Both models of handguns are operating as intended. It's the Officer that is at fault, I'm quite sure that their training does not mandate putting a finger inside the triggerguard while drawing the sidearm. I'm also quite sure that their training says specifically not to put a finger inside the triggerguard while drawing.
 

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Is it just me?

I have really got to wondering a lot of late....

About differences in "gun handling" between nations even!.

Pretty much all my life as a forearms owner of 35+ years now - I was always taught - not to have a round chambered unless you had already positively identified your target & were about ready to fire it!.

No one pretty much in this country (except maybe Police/cash in transit armed guards) carries a firearm "for defense purposes".

So wherever humanly possible - the chamber is empty until the last possible moment.

As a result I would wager our "per capita accidental discharges" (yeah i know about the term)... are way lower than most anywhere else.

However.

The idea of carrying for defense in the USA 'seems' to be all pervasive.

I get the impression everyone carries with one up the spout ready to go - like some wild west gun slinger... just in case they have to defend themselves in a split second instant.... where that fraction of a second to rack the slide or rotate the cylinder will make the difference between life and death.

Maybe it will? - (in the USA, not so much here).

But, I just don't get the reliance on safety switch, or "keeping the finger off the trigger"

I get it that this doesn't prevent a gun massacre - but I'd politely suggest it might help prevent so many accidental discharges by kids who pick up their parents loaded gun.

Here to be able to own that gun it has to be kept stored in a double locked gun safe, with ammo locked in a separate metal container.. etc.

You just cannot pick up a loaded gun kept on your night stand to defend yourself... in this country.

I just don't get it - that anyone thinks they need that kind of 'self protection'.

Honestly - what most of us (outside the USA) think is that ANYONE from the USA with a gun is basically "trigger happy"....

I've had our own seasoned Vietnam vets tell me, that they feared friendly fire from their ally US troops - way MORE than the fire from Vietcong.

Our military ARE your allies.. and while we will go into just about any stoush anywhere in the world to support you - the simple facts are that we prefer to be "independent" to US ops... give us a territory to defend and leave us too it - we "prefer" to work alone - because our own military prefer not to work in 'joint ops'.... because of the risk of friendly fire from trigger happy Yanks...

Maybe that's 'impolite' to tell the truth (in public) and on a US hosted forum no less...

But do you all realize how "trigger happy" the rest of the world actually thinks you are, as a nation?

Is this apparent lack of respect for the value of human life and tendency to shoot first and ask questions later... ids this is whats behind the spate of massacres?.

Do these sickos massacre because they are raised with zero value for human life?

They watch some drone on TV news... wiping out newsmen and innocent women and kids in a country like say Pakistan that we aren't even at war with.... all described as "collateral damage", and dismissed out of hand.

They were killed not by someone looking into their eyes but bye some kid with a joystick somewhere in the bowels of a operating base or the pentagon I guess.

Theres no human contact face to face taking of a life... its all "computer game like"... kill kill kill - reload the game and start again... everything's fantasy...

These kids have never had to kill an animal to eat or feed their family - i.e. accept personal responsibility for taking a life.... and deal with it - come to grips with it and understand the personal responsibility, of the consequences of pulling that trigger.

Is that (along with psychotic drugs prescribed for every ailment.. including parents with no time for their kids) - why we have such massacres?

I don't know - but I can't help but wonder sometimes - when I muse about such things!.

My own personal method of coping with this sh!t - is "the list".

That the list I keep - (with my ammo, in case I ever get dementia and forget) of all the people I need to kill - before I die, to leave the world a better place than I found it!

Once they make it to the list I can forget about them and move on with life.

If it ever gets too much and i want to end it all - i just have to retrieve the list and start working my way thru them one by one.. until either they are all dead or someone takes me out first!

That's MY "personal coping mechanism" - "The List". 1 Simple comment is all it takes for me - "you just made the list". And move on!

The list of course is my own personal list of "dead men walking".

They are all on death row - just that no one told them is all!. :D

Maybe these massacre guys were just lucky enough to get everyone "on their list" in the one place at the one time? :confused:

There has to be a reason.... doesn't there? :confused:
 

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I wonder what laguage we would be typing in if not for "trigger happy yanks"?

I think you posted in the wrong thread by mistake.
 

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Yeah

Yeah i did wander off into the whole recent massacre thing....its all over the TV while I am typing and I got distracted...

What i was on about in relation to guns is "having one up the spout" - it seems to be a specifically "trigger happy yank" thing compared to elsewhere?.

But the safety was on!, but I didn't touch the trigger!. I've read all the excuses - and at the end of the day if the breach was empty the 'accidents' ( i use the word deliberately) just wouldn't happen.

What is it about loaded guns with you Yanks? :confused: :D ;)
 

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Let us be logical

Anne,

Where it is necessary to carry a side-arm (like in South Africa) it is necessary to carry it loaded and ready to be drawn and fired immediately it is needed. So many instances happen also in the USA where some good citizen with a loaded gun prevented a tragedy to occur. If it is needed there is no time to shout to an attacker: "Wait! Wait! I just need to get some ammunition into this darn thing and then we can talk again!"

Do you remember who the Yankees were? Not really the ancestors of the present body of responsible gun owners and hunters and shooters. You call anyone from Florida or Texas or west of the Rockies a "Yank" and maybe due to good manners it may be brushed off as a slip of the tongue... :eek:
 

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Two reasons to carry loaded--- an unloaded gun is a poor club, and, I can't throw it 1200 fps.
 

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Two reasons to carry loaded--- an unloaded gun is a poor club, and, I can't throw it 1200 fps.
Well said ;)

Get used to the standards for police training of new recruits to continue to go down. They have 'goals' to meet for various 'groups' and if the gun can't be handled by someone in this 'group' or the other, then the gun will get changed.

There have been some interesting stories in the local paper about the difficulties of the police department to get new recruits qualified on firearms, some of whom never shot a gun in their life before attending the police academy. On the other hand - I knew a guy with military police experience who had to wait a year just to get into the academy (good shot too) just because he wasn't in the 'group' that they needed to meet the 'goal' for. Anyway....

There are two separate issues, at least. Maybe more.

When cars with anti-lock brakes came out, there were a bunch of crashes by veteran officers who weren't used to the new technology. They had to adapt to it and re-learn high speed pursuit, because the technology wasn't going to go away. Presumably, this was less of a problem for those who hadn't learned the 'old way' of driving, whatever that was.

So the veterans will have to adapt to the lighter trigger pulls. Maybe some of them were just sloppy and got away without unintended discharges in the past due to heavier trigger pulls? I don't know.

The second issue, when you have a 'goal' as a department that a 90 lb recruit with hands the size of a child can fire the gun and pass the shooting qualification; then guess what? A child of that same size can handle the gun just as easily and that's probably not a good thing. I think that was the point Mr. Belk was trying.
 
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