[swifty]

I am interested in loading my 45-70 with a 405 grain cast bullet for muzzel velocity of around 1200 ft. per second.
I have some data using about 23 grains of 4759 with good effect. The issue is that the case is oly about half full. I wanted to add a 1/8 inch cork waffer or wad between the powder charge and the back of the cast lead bullet. I have heard that some say this air space and a thin waffer or wad might serve as a secondary projectile and cause dammage to the barrel. I would like to see some data on this effect.
Was it seen when using a modern rifle such as the 1895 CB
Marlin? What typ of powder was used? How much air space was there?
Any evidence or sharing of ideas would be appreciated.
Swifty

 

[andy]

In the October issue of Handoader Mr. Ross Seyfried says he uses Dacron (pillow stuffing material) to hold the powder in place in British black powder express cartridges. He says "I cannot warn too strongly against using any kind of cereal, plastic, or foam filler." Of course I would recommend you read the whole article but he was talking specifically about a .500x3 inch Express, where he uses 13 grains of dacron "Yes this is a big ball and the case is full. That is how it is supposed to work." He does not go into detail but says he has seen two fine doubles ruined by using foam and small charges of smokeless powder.

 

[Fred]

Years ago I fooled around with .270 Win cast bullets (Oh heck! I was a kid and had all kinds of time to experiment with things that didn't make sense.) Anyway I got loads out of an old Lyman book that is now misplaced. They involved (I think) Red Dot held down near the base of the nearly empty cartridge with dacron polyester fluff. These did not burn up when fired - they left a melted gob of blackish plastic on the ground because I rember being surprised at recovering some on barren hardpan. I never experienced problems with excessive or unusual barrel fouling. I'm not sure what different types of fluff (e.g. cotton, dacron, wool, acrylic) would do, only that some would combust and some might not. If you do experiment with this you might wish to avoid firing in tinder dry conditions around brush until you find out the fate of the wadding.

 

[DMC]

I used to use Dacron fluff in some loads until I found some black balls such as Fred describes. Another reloader suggested that I use cotton, which would completely combust with no chance of forming a secondary projectile. Made sense to me, so that's what I use now.
Mr. Seyfield uses Dacron and evidently doesn't have problems, but cautions against plastic. Dacron IS a type of plastic. More and more lately I've seen things in the magazines that are contradictory or just plain wrong. In another mag, an article about a method of working up loads included a burn rate chart that had at least one error that could result in a ruined gun or rearranged body parts of a shooter.
DC

 

[Jungli Bains]

For awhile I used Cream of Wheat as a filler in my .45/70. Then I began seeing warnings about using fillers; some said they experienced bulged barrels and chambers. I never had these problems, but decided to stop the use of Cream of Wheat. I found that if I used easy to ignite powders, like SR4759, accuracy and velocity remained good.
I don't think the jury is back on this one. I don't believe anyone has been able to create a ringed barrel or chamber at will. So exactly what is going on is all speculative.
I would use that SR4759 load without a granular filler and maybe I'd avoid the dacron too.

 

[Fred]

Over time with vibration and jostling a filler can mix with powder so that ignition of the whole charge is impaired UNLESS the case is essentially filled. I do not think this is a good idea with smokeless powder. I have used cornmeal as filler on top of a blackpowder charge in reduced loads for cap & ball revolver. I like 26 gr FFFg with a .454 ball in my Ruiger Old Army using this method in lieu of using the 42 grain full charge. These loads are (a) compressed and (b) shot within minutes of loading so that no mixing of filler and powder can occur. DMC is correct that Dacron is a plastic: to be specific it is fiberized poly(ethylene terephthalate) and it is not particularly prone to combustion.

 

[Contender]

I have an article on "Super Grex" if I remember the name correctly. It is a poly-ethylene type material in granule form. The article is about using it for a case filler. It actually looks like its ground up poly.

It's normally used for buffering shotgun pellet shot charges, mixing it in with them.

I'll see if I can find the article and I'll e-mail it to anybody that wants it.


Regards

 

[Greenhorn Dave]

corn meal and plastic tubing

I had an old friend named Bill Smith who everyone around here admired as a wonderful and practical gunsmith, machinist, and highly intelligent and knowledgable fellow. I was loading 7-30 Waters cartridges about half-full of powder and wondered about putting in a filler to keep the powder against the primer. He said try topping it off with cornmeal, and I did that. The T/C rifle and the fired brass never showed any signs of strain. But I got to thinking and got nervous that I was getting the powder to push a solid mass through a necked down opening. That surely must have increased the pressure. So I stopped adding the corn meal.

On straight wall cases I'm not too sure of the safety of adding a filler. Perhaps the best idea is to develop the habit of tipping the gun up before every shot to have the powder fall back on the primer.

Bill Smith did have one clever light load idea that seemed to work well. He had a 458 Win Mag that he liked to shoot light loads in. Bill went to ACE Hardware and found a clear plastic tubing that fit snugly on the inside of the 458 brass. He cut pieces of that tubing to a length so the seated bullets would barely touch the top of the tubing sleeve. The powder chamber inside the 458 brass was sized down to what looked like about .35. Then he put in light loads of powder and got consistent results. He never saw any indication of plastic fouling on the inside of the barrel. And I don't imagine his Ruger No.1 Tropical was strained a bit!

 

[loader]

There is a much simpler solution, that is not speculative or experimental -

Accurate Arms XMP 5744 powder was designed from scratch to do exactly what you are attempting: burn uniformly and safely with small charges in big cases like the 50/140, 90and 70 Sharps, 458 Win Mag 45/90, 110 and 120 Sharps and 45/70.

This is a totally new type of smokeless powder with no coating and high nitro content that ignites very easily and burns uniformly regardless of load density or case position.

AA even has an entire section of their manual devoted to just XMP5744 which you need to read to believe. I use it in 223, 243, 708, 30-06, 300 WSM, 270 WSM, 300 RUM, 338 Win, 338 RUM, 416 Rem, 454 Casull, and 458 Win Mag with remarkable results (my 300 RUM loads duplicate the 30-06 with a velocity std deviation os 12 fps).

For 45/70, they list too many loads to go into here, but you can start at 26.0 grs of XMP5744 with 405 gr bullets and go up to 33 grains, covering the 1172 to 1589 fps velocity bracket.

Call the AA lab at 1-800-416-3006, and you will get all the help you need. American technology is the best!!

 

[Greenhorn Dave]

Comment to Loader

Loader -
Thanks for the great answer. I will check out that AA XMP 5744 powder.

 

[Kragman71]

fillers

I have loaded and fired MANY thousands of cartridges with various fillers,since I started in 1948.
Back then,my favorite was Cream 'o wheat,and it worked just fine,but,when I discovered Kapok,it became my new favorite. Later on,I discovered Dacron,and it became my newest favorite,and it still is.
I do use a product called PuffLon,which is a fine powder,that completely fills the case,and canbe measured as accurately as the powder charge. I use this in loads that will be subject to hard use(hunting loads). I have a concern that the Dacron wad may migrate fromthe surface of the powder,leaving a space.
I do know that leaving a space between the powder and the Dacron wad will result in a terrible inaccurate load. I suspect that this is a posible cause of "chamber ringing".
I have never actually seen a chamber that was "ringed",or spoke to a person who did. This is in a 50 year period.
All of the accounts of this have been in the last 3 years,and all of them were on the "Web".
I used to shoot a lot of very light loads in my Trapdoor Springfield,with Red Dot or Bullseye powder. Thesefilled the case less the 50%,and that may possibly be a hazzard. I don't shoot them any more;my rifle is too valuable to me,even it the danger is very slight.
Last month,I bought a bag of cotton balls. Next Spring,I will try them out.Maybe that will be my latest,newest favorite filler.
Sorry,I seemed to ramble on.
Frank

 

[BCstocker]

fillers

I use dacron and occasionally corn meal or cream of wheat in straight sided cases. Any filler that can absorb moisture and "bond" itself together is sure not a good thing to use for bottleneck cartridges. I don't retain any cartridges that use cereal fillers for any extended period of time because of that.
One load that I use in my 1886, 45-70 is 37 grains of 3031 and 15 grains of corn meal with a 425 grain hard cast bullet. The corn meal is slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. It is a very accurate load with low recoil. Smells a bit like burnt shredded wheat when used.

I have found true dacron fibre to be very hard to burn or melt. A similar polyester batting on the other hand does melt relatively easily. In any event I have a problem reconciling how a 1/2 grain of dacron installed properly could cause "ringing". To my little pea brain there just doesn't seem to be enough mass to do that but possibly it can occur.

After a long search for 5744 I managed to get a couple pounds and am frankly disappointed in the accuracy it has provided. It is convenient but in my rifle provides 6" groups as opposed to 2 to 3 inch groups with conventional powders.
If anyone has found any real accurate loads with this powder I'd like to hear about them.

Re 7 and IMR 3031 continue to provide the best accuracy for me.

 

[MikeG]

Hmmm.... I think that the next logical step is to use BisQuik for filler, then when you shoot the buck, dinner is half cooked!!!

Seriously, good information, thanks gents!

 

[MikeG]

Went looking for Dacron this weekend and could not locate any. This would be for lapping loads, very low pressure, of course. All I could find was polyester, in both the sheets (which I would not use) and 'loose' like you would use to stuff a pillow, which sounds more like Dacron from the description people have given of the stuff.

So, how is the polyester going to work for lapping loads? I've fired plenty of lapping loads without it, but would like to try some to 1. ensure that the loads are more consistent, and 2. test the theory that it will help keep the bore cleaned out. Jack mentioned in another thread that using Dacron for filler in lapping loads left the bore nice and shiny.

But with polyester, not sure if this will work, the stuff is flammable (per the package warning) and I don't want to leave a bunch of melted gunk in the bore. Lapping load is planned to be about 3 grains of Bullseye in a .35 Rem case, with the lapping bullet being a 148gr. wadcutter.

Thoughts?

 

[Contender]

Mike,

I don't think I'd bother with the Dacron/Polyester in your lapping loads. You are using an extremely fast pistol powder which ignites easily, especially with the rifle primer.

You're not looking to tune these loads either because these are simply lapping loads with no criteria for accuracy or consistency applied to them.

Just my opinion.


Regards

 

[Kragman71]

Dacron polyester

MikeG,
I may be wrong,but I believe that Dacron is polyester.
I use the sheets,myself,because I find it easier to work with.
If you are leery of using any thing synthetic,try using cotton.
I am not aware of cotton fillers being blamed for anything.
I suggest that you use cotton for any load that the powder fills less then half the case. As for charges that fill most of the case,especially straight -walled case,I intend to use Dacron. I will continue to be sure that I use enough material to keep a firm grip on the case sidewall,and to place it firmly atop the powder charge.
Good luck,
Frank

 

[Jungli Bains]

I did some lapping in a .300 Win.Mag. and didn't use any filler. Just as Contender says lapping loads work fine with pistol powder and a large rifle primer.

 

[DrHenley]

Sorry to drag this post up from the grave, but I'm having a hard time finding info on this subject.

I recently started loading for a Ruger #3 in 45-70. I don't need an elephant load, just a deer load for heavy brush. I've gone the 5744/4895/3031 route with no success. I either get too much recoil, poor accuracy, or excessive unburned powder or soot.

I am currently trying various charges of Reloder 7, which leaves way too much air space in the case. I will try some cotton wadding, which I packed in pretty tightly in a few of the cases.

I am currently using 300 grain HPs.

Any suggestions?

 

[BCstocker]

Case fillers,etc.

Dr. Henley:

On using XMP5744, Sky C. passed me a bit of information that has proved to be invaluable. Substitute large pistol primers for reloading with this powder and accuracy improves amazingly. It isn't a particularly clean burning powder with any primer in my experience but I now use a lot of it in my 348 and 45-70 with very satisfactory accuracy and ample velocity for most requirements including deer hunting..

I am currently playing with a filler called PSB over near top loads of H4831 and Re-19 in my 348 with a 255 grain bullet. Haven't used it enough yet to form any hard opinions of its benefits but I will advise the forum when I have.

 

[kdub]

DrHenley -

Go to the home page here on Beartooth, on the left hand margin, scroll down to "Tech Notes". Click on and then scroll down the various notes for an article on using fillers. Should be of help to you.