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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Read an article from my favorite hunting magazine last night about how the author built a new caliber rifle for shootng 1,000 yd. compition and small animals way out with some larger stuff in the middle. Good article and well written. Basically an upgrade of the .243 Winchester. He got into some terms that the ordinary person would't understand and I thank him for that as he made the reader understand that this is a rifle that is custom made and must have custom ammunition to shoot well enough to hit the targets way out there. My question to you brothers is, with these articles are we unknowingly telling the general public that it is okay to take shots at game way out there? Where does the ethics of the sport come into play and are we expanding the box so to speak to say if you can hit it okay go for it. I was a hunter education instructor for 27 years and part of what I taught was Ethics. We tried to teach that at what range in the field positions you could keep all shots in a 9 inch paper plate, that was your maximum range to ethically hunt Deer. It seems like everyone wants to be a sniper these days. Snipers are well trained individuals with a skill set far above the typical shooter that works a day job and shoots on the weekend. I applaud them for what they do, but do not advocate the evryday hunter try his tactics and methods. Am I being too thin skined about this? What say ye brothers. Lou
 

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The paper plate or the pie plate has always been a good reference point. I've seen complete misses achieved with long guns at 25 yards, so there is no fixed distance one can put on these things. The shooter has to know what his skills and equipment can or can't do under the ambient conditions.

Sniper/tac rifle shooting skills are challenging and fun to develop, but it needs to be born in mind that a disabling wound is a pretty satisfactory result in combat or LE sniping. Not so with deer.
 

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I used to feel very strongly that someone should not "hunt" past the maximum point-blank range of a given firearm, when sighted in for an 8" kill zone. (+/- 4")

For the flattest-shooting cartridges out there, this is around 400 yards, at the most. For many commonly used cartridges, it is ~300 yards, or less. Personally, that is STILL how I choose to restrict my shots, while hunting big game. (For varmints, it's a different story.)

However, with the advent of laser range-finders, accurate wind gauges, small, field-ready ballistic computers, and many rifles/bullets that are simply a great deal more accurate than the average gun used to be, the rules have changed a little bit. With the right equipment, and a lot of practice, there are guys out there who can keep all of their shots in a 9" circle at "X" number of yards. For those guys, if they feel long-range shooting is "hunting", then I say let 'em have at it.

With all of that being said, my greatest concern echos yours: Too many young hunters are coming up, seeing and hearing about "snipers", and wanting to apply that to hunting. I go out of my way to make sure that every person I introduce to hunting and/or shooting, fully understands the difference between the two. It's great to challenge your shooting skills. It's also great to challenge your HUNTING skills. I guess that's why I prefer bow-hunting over gun hunting and why I've been doing more and more hunting with older, open-sighted guns, in recent years. I still hunt with a scoped, center-fire rifle, every year, but I've come to think of it as less "hunting" as it is harvesting.

Just my .02.
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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Go to the "Hunting Stories" forum and click on the Sticky at the top of the forum regarding hunting ethics.

This topic recirculates every so often. A search of the Archives will contain numerous posts on the matter. Needless to say, there's very passionate opinions on long range hunting and the ethics involved. Competent marksmen with accurate firearms feel there's nothing wrong and will argue about the game taken at great distances. Others will argue you must almost be touching hair before a guaranteed quick kill can be made.

Its up to the individual to realize his abilities with the firearm in hand to take a shot at a living thing, no matter if at 10 yards or 1,000 yards. The ethical hunter will recognize his/her competence at a given range and either make the shot or pass it up.
 

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I see you get the Outdoor Life magazine :) I thought the same thing when I read this article. I would love to shoot this far at targets but I would never even try to shoot a living animal this far away. I do believe that there are people and equipment out there that can do this and if they like doing it I say go for it, but I believe there are a lot of people out there who do not have the skills or equipment to do such but still try it anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the input guys. Yes Bigcheese that was Outdoor life but I was trying to keep it nice. American Hunter had a similar article written by a retired sniper about things they do to keep from being picked up by the other guys. Again well written with lots of usefull information, but is it appropriate for the circumstances. Let the reader be the judge and try to teach the new guys the ethicle way I guess. Lou:eek:
 

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It's difficult to find a safe shooting location for that kind of distance for most of us.
Best that I can personally do is 360 yards. That is seasonal working around agriculture.

Know one place to shoot to 600 yards safely. Cold during winter though is best and must choose a proper day that fits my personal schedule.

Never tried 1000 yards. Would love to though!

Cheezywan
 

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I've fired a 1000 yard course of fire quite a bit. It is challanging and I found it great fun to say nothing of all one learns when shooting such distances. When I was in the thick of that kind of shooting I would have felt very comfortable taking an 800 yard shot at a whitetail, but I wouldn't have. That isn't hunting, that is fine marksmanship and has its place but I don't believe the hunting field is the place. As far as I'm concerned 98% of what is portrayed in hunting magazines has gone entirely too "high tech" with less emphasis on learning the skills needed to be a woodsman. Game cameras, range finders, "sooper-dooper" scopes, scent lock clothing, high tech camo.......none of it is needed to take a good game animal. I do as well using my flintlock and wearing clothing appropriate to the late 18th century as my friends who can't go into the woods without all that stuff. I see it all as a crutch and a substitute for ability. No LR,I do't believe you're being too thin skinned at all, the wrong message is being sent.
 

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Unfortunately lots of people believe in what they read in magazines. Magazines have one purpose and that’s to sell stories. I am not discrediting them as some of them are really good info but not always the best thing. Remember the WSM rounds. I know they are still around but when they first came out all the magazines and the hunting media made them the ultimate caliber. Lots of my buddies ran out and bought them and well most of them just sit in their gun safes now. Do I think they are cool, yes I do. Do I have one, nope. Magazines have been advertizing and selling stories for a long time now. Unfortunately it’s about the dollar signs.
 

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While I admire the skills of the 1000 yard target shooters, when people start talking about shooting game at this distance I cringe. The reason I cringe is that I tend to think of it this way: "Are you too clumsy to stalk within 500 yards? If so maybe this isn't the best activity for you to engage in." I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just the way my mind works. I'm far more impressed with the guy who had to take two steps back to be able to get the muzzle of his rifle on the animal, than the long range shot on clueless game.

Regards,
Gene
 

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Yep, that's a bit far to shoot a game animal. I'm more of a max-point-blank-range kinda guy, but then again I've never shot at anything over 100 yds with a rifle. That may change when I hunt mule deer in Idaho this fall, but I seriously doubt it.... good post
 

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While I admire the skills of the 1000 yard target shooters, when people start talking about shooting game at this distance I cringe. The reason I cringe is that I tend to think of it this way: "Are you too clumsy to stalk within 500 yards? If so maybe this isn't the best activity for you to engage in." I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just the way my mind works. I'm far more impressed with the guy who had to take two steps back to be able to get the muzzle of his rifle on the animal, than the long range shot on clueless game.

Regards,
Gene
you know what, their are some fly fisherman who consider spin fishermen clumsy slobs.
thats being a bit elitist in my humble opinion.

there are areas where making a stalk isnt easy or maybe not even possible.
long range shots are often the only ones possible.
if sticking a gun in the ribs of a deer makes you happy, wait till you get one at 600 yds. before you close the book on how that might make you feel.
as for cluless game, isnt that the idea behind tree stands?
how about camo clothing and blinds for gobbler hunting?
are those things ethicle, hmmm?
is it ok to use some types of binnoculars, but not others bigger than the ones im using?
should we all be required to use muzzle loaders or open sighted 94 winchesters?

ive read all these post, and my opinion is most are based on just that, opinions.
obviously uneducated opinions for the most part.
as a long range hunter exclusivly for more than 40 years i will say the original post had a valid point.
it would be easy for the uninformed to reach the opinion that a suitable rifle and a rangefinder is all that is needed to make long shots on game.
in fact their are some gunsmiths who will say nothing to challenge that opinion. buy my rifle and you too can be a star is their obvious message.
while all that might be true as for the shooting part, it certainly dosent address the more important part. that being did i hit the animal.
they dont always just fall over when hit.
crippled animals are unfortunatly sometimes a part of the hunting scene regardless of method used.
for that reason long range hunting should be done as a team effort with an experienced
spotter watching the shots.
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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No one should take this thread in a personal manner and get their panties up in a wad over what's been posted by others. Opinions are like most things - everyone has one.

I knew there would be some hotly contested posts, but was hoping for courteous disasgreement - not phrase slinging.

Let's all practice the board's main rejoiner - "Play nice and join in". Otherwise, threads tend to get shut down. Please continue with thoughts on this theme.
 

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im not sure if kdubs warning shot was aimed in my direction, just sort of in my direction, or not necesseraly in my direction at all.
it does seem to me as if it came as a result of my post.
i believe i did point out that i agreed with an issue raised in the original post and a concern that i share also.
you can be sure that i will respect the opinions of others here and only ask that mine be respected also. i think my questions were fair and not hostile in nature. certainly they werent intended that way.
i also think it might be fair to ask why this issue was raised? are we trying to illustrate that some ways of killing an animal are more ethical than others? or that some ways of hunting are fairer than others? if so, where are the boundries for that? seems to me thats a bottomless pit we shouldnt be peering into.


im 76 years old. the first year i hunted in my home state of pa was 1947.
jack occonner was in his prime. so were other big time gurus of the day.
outdoor life and other magazines would commonly show pictures of some guy with a pipe wiping down his trusty savage 99. often they showed some little kid on the floor just yearning for his time to come.
remember, the kid had no tv to watch. i can vouch for that.
so you see ive seen it and done it both then and now and by a variety of methods.

its hard to get young people involved in hunting today. there are just too many other things for them to get involved in.
the promise of grandpa's old savage might not be enough to spark the interest and keep it alive.
send me that kid and ill put a smile on his face. in a picture of him posing with a 500 yard buck. you see it is very easy, with the right ingredients.
can you shoot an inch group? trust me, your good to go.
 

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im not sure if kdubs warning shot was aimed in my direction, just sort of in my direction, or not necesseraly in my direction at all.
it does seem to me as if it came as a result of my post.
i believe i did point out that i agreed with an issue raised in the original post and a concern that i share also.
you can be sure that i will respect the opinions of others here and only ask that mine be respected also. i think my questions were fair and not hostile in nature. certainly they werent intended that way.
i also think it might be fair to ask why this issue was raised? are we trying to illustrate that some ways of killing an animal are more ethical than others? or that some ways of hunting are fairer than others? if so, where are the boundries for that? seems to me thats a bottomless pit we shouldnt be peering into.


im 76 years old. the first year i hunted in my home state of pa was 1947.
jack occonner was in his prime. so were other big time gurus of the day.
outdoor life and other magazines would commonly show pictures of some guy with a pipe wiping down his trusty savage 99. often they showed some little kid on the floor just yearning for his time to come.
remember, the kid had no tv to watch. i can vouch for that.
so you see ive seen it and done it both then and now and by a variety of methods.

its hard to get young people involved in hunting today. there are just too many other things for them to get involved in.
the promise of grandpa's old savage might not be enough to spark the interest and keep it alive.
send me that kid and ill put a smile on his face. in a picture of him posing with a 500 yard buck. you see it is very easy, with the right ingredients.
can you shoot an inch group? trust me, your good to go.
Since you brought up Jack O'Connor, godfather of possibly the first truly popular "long-range" rifle, all I can add to my previous post, is the signature I quoted from one of Jack's books.
 

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Let your conscience be your guide...

I'm not a hunter, but I pal around with some. I shoot targets. My opinion is: If you have even the slightest doubt, don't shoot. Yes, all things may fall into place just right and you'll make the kill. But the wind is a cruel playmate. You may miss the vital zone and then you've wounded an animal. Not my way of doing things. I've said my peace...
 

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In Pa, the powers that be imposed a weight limit on big game rifles.They drew the ethical line in the sand because a group hauled a bench down over a ridge and set up to shoot across the Susquehanna River. I would question not the ability to make the shot, but of the terminal ballistics of the projectile once it got there. (With the exception of a 50 BMG, which is another can of worms)
Indian
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Long shot brought up some good points. I especially liked the part about camo's and blinds. Didn't really think of it that way. I liked Indians comments and agree. I watched someting like that on u-tube once and after several looks concluded they were useing a .338 Lapua and shooting a looooooong way out. There are several people that visit this web site that do not know about the balistics side of things and I think that the most popular deer rifles are .30-06. .270 and .35 Rem. I very easily could be wrong here but doesen't the bullit manufacturerers recomend 2,000 to 2,200 FPS for the bullit to expand and do the job it was intended for? At extended ranges would the projectile not fall under those parameters and not do the job intended? Just a thought. I don't expect bang, flop every time I pull the trigger, but I don't want to wound one and have it expire days afterward with alot of pain built in. Lou
 

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At the store I can always tell a beginner shooter.They walk in with an attitude and immediately ask for a .308 that can shoot 1000 yds.I like to bust their chops by asking them what they zeroed in at [no 1000yd ranges out this way] then ask them what their holdover is at 1000. Always good for a laugh.
 
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