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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #1
It appears from a review of the various items and their related messages that we have two cultures of shooters.  The wise Aristotelians who believe “everything in moderation” and use the de facto standard of “will it kill a whitetail deer without going through two trees afterwards”.  We then have the Mt. Everestians who do it “because it’s there” and may have problems with testosterone balance on occasion. These two groups post excellent messages, frequently both sides are correct even though they don’t agree, and just as frequently don’t hear each other. But they sure do make life more interesting for we newbies and I dearly enjoy and appreciate both of them.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Amen to that Jack! I was really lucky to learn my lesson before losing a digit or three. Or worse. These days I'm very happy with my mundane .357's, .30-06's, and .444's. When I think about what is "gained" by excessive loading, as opposed to the several downsides of same, I have to wonder what I was thinking when trying to make my Magnum into Mjolnir.
 

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  It's the third group that Mr. Lester resigned from that I have a problem with and they are the ones that give handloading a bad name. Actually I prefer loads that will shoot through three trees :biggrin: , but I don't try to make a little gun into a big gun.

  There's a difference between testing yourself and testing the gun. If you enjoy the challenge of controlling a .475 Linebaugh, fine, but why blow it up?

  I've had a few close calls, mainly from not backing off enough and working up a new batch of powder or primers.

  Enough philosophy!

Bye
Jack
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #5
Hey,  you have to like a guy that handloads and makes references to "Mjolnir" -- Thor's big hammer!

Very respectfully,
 

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A firearm is a tool. I would be silly to use a sledge hammer to drive a nail to hang a picture from and it would be tedious to try to set a railroad spike with a tack hammer. It would matter little to put a shorter handle on the sledge or a longer handle on the tack hammer, it's doubtful doing so would alter the results.
My favorite 45-70 loads are moderately high for smokeless, my 25-06 are below max, my 357 loads are puff balls for that caliber but hot for 38's.
I load the ammo to suit the job at hand. I can only kill the deer once!
Jim
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #8
Arkypete,

Enjoyed your comments.  You use “killing a deer without overkill” as your criteria – great.  The success of the hunt is your end goal.  Certainly respect that, but mine is not.  I thoroughly enjoy the challenges of handloading to achieve the “peak” – fastest, most accurate loads.  First and foremost, I completely support the advice Mr. Stanton contributed in his excellent article “Max Loads & Handguns” – use the Chrony and stop when the velocity gain / powder increment combination is not progressive, be vigilant to the signs of pressure. But my 6,000 + rounds a year are in search of a goal without firing a shot at a deer, elk, moose – not even a Democrat!  They are at the range testing new powders, bullets, primers, calibers, revolvers and myself. My sense of accomplishment is when I find the best combination (and that includes velocity) of cartridge and gun and myself. I’m also sure most folks combine load development with their interest in hunting – that’s even better yet.

I’m not trying to be judgmental; simply observe from the various postings that different interests and end goals create different approaches to handloading and shooting. A lot of magazines are sold because a lot of people want the excitement of reading the latest Taffin big bore tests, JD’s and Seyfried’s latest African safari using the hottest loads. The biggest, baddest, loudest, fastest seems to be not only part of our culture, but part of the reason we’ve been successful (some would say profitable, not successful).

That’s the end of my philosophy – have a new load, 44mag/1650fps via Contender to test this morning. If it’s the fastest and most accurate (and safe), I’ll be pleased, if not, I’ll be back tomorrow.  And I’ll probably squeal my tires when I leave :^)

Have a good day,
 

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Well Now!.....This is very interesting! I'm not sure which bucket I fall into. I think the the boys that do constant load development are an important factor in our game. However, when so-called load development goes beyond the safe working pressures for the firearm, I part company..big time! "Bigger is Better" is good in some cases, however when it becomes a "Macho" about having the biggest gun in town or a psyho extension of their penis, I part company...big time! When they start quote the latest pseudo "Guru" who is listing loads that even the powder companies back away from,I part company.....big time! When I see "Snake Oil" salemanship, pushing high price items they sell (and make big bucks on) to any of the above mentioned class shooters, I part company....big time!
The Gun Rags and their syndicated writers/salesmen using Newspaper Techniques....print the sensational bull sh** to sell their products, I part company....big time!
Being a game hunter, sometimes against things that can hurt you, I am more interested in bullet performance and firearm contollability....pure and simple! Be assured, they go handin hand! If you get your "jollies" by letting loose a slightly controlled explosion....great! Just stay away from me!
I happen to think we have a responsibility to shooters, in general, to try to show real world use of firearms. If that's Old Mossey Back attitudes.....so be it!
If a man goes into a sweaty situation with a handgun he can't control as natural as pointing his finger....He's a dam* fool! He should keep a cell phone to call 911!
We are in a declining market...So the old marketing scheme is the most popular..."If there is no demand, then create one!" Look around you..do we need a cannon to kill a pi**ant? And believe me there wagon is full! I have, and will, stay off the posts that go nowhere!
Best Regards, James
 

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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->. However, when so-called load development goes beyond the safe working pressures for the firearm, I part company..big time! [/quote]


So you don't shoot 44s or 454s? Because without the guys that tested the limits neither of these cartridges would have been born.


-CAL
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #11
Well, Mr. Gates, interesting comments that are obviouly heart felt and well intented.

I'm not an ant killer (don't kill anything), don't feel comfortable dressing up to play cowboy, and shooting &#363/5K guns on the run is not my thing -- and I get my meat at the supermarket.  So I guess I'll not the person to "show real world use of firearms". But I will not apologize for enjoying to push the envelope -- and hope you will take my word that my "you know what" is just fine, thank you, before and after shooting.

I spend time in Florida every winter and will try to stay out of your way -- you'll hear me coming!!

Enjoyed your comments,

Respectfully,

DOK
 

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Well, Indeed....If your last comments about hearing you coming was suppoese to frighten me, you fail. I don't hide may real name or where I am from. My latch string is always there. We have open invitations to all tourists here in Dixie County! But down here mouth don't count!
Best Regards, James
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #13
Mr. Gates, you have a way with words.  I'll try to bring more than my mouth and will look up Old Town Hammock on the map to see if it's within reach.

Respectfully,
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #14
By the way, I've seen TV programs that demonstrated how you folks catch catfish hiding in logs -- shove your fist and arm down the 60+ lb. fish and pull it out!  If that's what you had in mind, I'm all mouth!

Respectfully,
 

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DOK...I like your humor. You been watching the wrong TV...We got too many gators to do that. Anyway..this has been fun. Old Town not hard to find, 35 miles West of Gainesville.
Best Regards, James
 

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Well, I'm certainly impressed by the bullying displayed. Why are these boorish posts on the increase? Or so it seems to me.

I come here for the shooting talk not to read written diarhea. Please, let's keep the posts mutually respectful and factual so that readers and posters will want to return to the site.

I shouldn't have been the one to have written that but someone needed to and it certainly appeared that no one was at the helm. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the next target for having the audacity to post this, but I'm posting it anyway. Without mutual respect and quality information this site is doomed, and I value it too much not to try to keep things civil. It's my wish that everyone using the site value it and not deminish it.
 

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Brian....You are correct! Why don't some of you try to put up with some of this stuff and see how long you last! I don't need it either! So...you all have the floor! Bye!
Best Regards, James
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Discussion Starter #18
BrianK and James Gates,

Apparently I'm at fault, certainly wasn't my intention to offend and if I did, I sincerely apologize.  I'd like to think BrianK has misinterpreted the language, but maybe he's more perceptive than I am.

Anyway, no offense taken, BrianK and James, and I stand corrected -- you have the floor and the postings, I'll not contribute any more "written diarhea" as you so stylishly stated.

Don't wish to offend or bore, so good-bye,
 

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DOK...I might not agree with you, but I'm with you on this! We have had a lot of bystander's on the Forum, with only a half dozen trying to carry the load.....so maybe our frustration point gets low at times. But I also say...let them have the floor and see if they can do any better! With that I shall bow out! Go for it boys!
Best Regards, James
 

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DOK

My thing is to play with various lead alloys, in firearms that that lead is appropriate, to find the most accurate, near to jacketed velocities, load.
My 25-06 is not, one of those.
For the job intended, I find the load that suits my purpose and use it until the job changes, a new mold appears, or I read something that tweeks my interest relating to a new powder, alloy, case, etc.
I may do my testing to prove something as basic as testing my casting technique. I once bought two identical four cavity molds throwing 255 grain slugs to see if there was any difference in accuracy in the two 45 Colts. Then I trimmed a thousand cases to see if this made much of a difference in the 45 Colts. Then I lapped the barrels on the Colts shot my tried and true loads to see what changed.
Most of my shooting is with the 45 Colts because...Like the cowboy said when asked why he shot a 45 Colt...Because they don't make a 46 Colt! I just plain like that caliber. I'll shoot 200 or 300 twice a month to keep my hand in. I'm coming from the point that if I can put a 255 grain slug around two or three inches of any one of the buttons on your shirt, moving at 900 to 1000 FPS, at 7 to 50 yards, I've done good.
Then I do the same with my 45 ACP.
What I did with the 45 auto is I developed a load that matched up with my carry loads, 230 grain Federal Hydoshocks.  With these loads I practice two in the chest and one in the head, as fast as I can.
Quick Draw McGraw I'm not, nor am I Dead Eye Dick. I like to be able to shoot a bunch and hit near to what I aim at.
With rifles I like to make an accurate cartridge, that carries plenty of power for the job at hand. I once took off on a tangent to see just how much oomph my 375 Whelen could make. With a high copper alloy babbit metal alloy and a bunch of AA 2460 I could blow a hole through a piece of 1/4 cold rolled steel at 100 meters. This particular load would handle most anything on this continent and Africa.
But for the most part I like my rifles to make nice little clusters of holes on the paper and leaving me some what black and blue the next day. My two 45-70's beat the living heck out of me after a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon, all with cast bullets.
I've not shot a factory bullet, except the 230 Hydroshocks, in many a year. For the most part there's nothing a jacketed slug can do that a cast bullet cannot do just as well, in the rifles I shoot the most.
I'm a tinkerer, nothing more nothing less.
Jim
 
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