Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This past weekend i was muzzleloader hunting. Before going out, we stopped at the range to fire a few test rounds. For the first round I poured the powder (Pyrodex) in my barrel and then put a 320gr maxi hunter bullet in. While pushing the bullet down, i heard a sizzle and a whisp of smoke came out of the barrel, the bullet was only about a 8" down. Scared the heck out of me, so I pulled it apart, dumped the powder, and removed the bullet. I then cleaned the barrel and tried it again. No smoke this time, but I'm pretty sure I heard the same sizzle when the bullet was halfway down. I continued and seated the bullet, and it fired just fine. I seem to recall this same issue happening several years ago. The only thing I can think is that there was a particle of powder stuck to the barrel and the friction of pushing the bullet down ignited that small piece. Anyone ever had this happen, what the heck is going on?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,948 Posts
Welcome to the shooters forum.

Haven't been into muzzleloading long as some here have, but no I haven't experienced that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
That was with the first round loaded?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,342 Posts
I'd had dust from a previous firing scare the daylights out of me with a maxi-ball. Compressed air makes the bullet 'fart'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: xjsdvr

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,162 Posts
Some people 'test' fire before loading, to clean the flash hole. did you do this?????

If so residual burning powder could cause something like this. But I doubt it; they usually just ignite when the powder load is poured in with a BIG flash/flame.

Air below the bullet as you force it down MUST go someplace. It can go out the flashhole/nipple or sneak about the bullet and come out the muzzle. I think of that sound as a 'swush' sort of.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,788 Posts
Welcome to the Forum

Glad to see you here and hope you post often.

I have not experienced what you have described regarding your muzzleloader. Take care. All the best...
Gil
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Plunging your load down the barrel of your Muzzle Loader is VERY dangerous!

Watch this Video This "Fire Piston" device is exactly what your Barrel, Ram Rod, Patched/Sabot Bullet, and Powder are.

Now the vent is going to release the pressure providing it isn't plugged or capped.
The Safe way to Load is to only have about 6 inches of ram rod gripped an work your load down the barrel in steps.
Now some may Balk (Not Belk)!! at this advice but some unfortunate shooters will testify that this is sound advice because if you are holding a long grip and as you slowly push the rod down and you meet resistance and then it gives way you could build up to 400psi and the heat of that pressure is what ignites a diesel engine and your powder is the fuel!!

Adam Hartman suffered this injury several years ago!!

I have pictures of his damaged hand and forearm where the ramrod passed on my other computer that died last weekend but its backed up on a drive that i will search tomorrow.
Anyway the story in the link will tell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,458 Posts
209 primers create a negative nipple

I converted an inline to the top hat musket caps. These blow
Off, or leak, before dieseling it’s pyrodex pellets. CCI musket caps are equal to 209 primers, so ignition is equal, except for moisture exposure with top hats on a nipple.

I’m surprised that legal eagle never picked up on the better dealing with the modern shotgun primers.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
I converted an inline to the top hat musket caps. These blow
Off, or leak, before dieseling it’s pyrodex pellets. CCI musket caps are equal to 209 primers, so ignition is equal, except for moisture exposure with top hats on a nipple.

I’m surprised that legal eagle never picked up on the better dealing with the modern shotgun primers.
I used to be a True Blue believer in the Musket Caps.
They are much easier to handle but make sure they are fresh! the card wads that cover the priming compound are nitrated and I have had these caps ignite on several occasions and that card wad not burn and it plugs the vent!
And I have seen it happen with the 209 primers.
One of my old hunting partners had a Mossberg shotgun conversions and when it miss fired he couldn't believe it could happen with such a powerful primer.
Well the truth be told, those nice little #10 & #11 caps are in my opinion much more reliable. Although they have to be seated properly.
I did about 100 test firings with both #10's and musket caps and the #10's had just as much fire as in push of a wad out the barrel as the musket caps.
Just My $0.02
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,342 Posts
The Court document linked to is interesting to an expert witness. There is a drawing of a Knight rifle that is correct but for the trigger. That is somebody's 'guess' and he got it entirely wrong. Neither side caught it.

Hartman's experience as described there was not claimed to be dieseling but a left-over ember in an admittedly un-swabbed barrel with a 209 cap IN PLACE during loading. I'd sure like to see that 209 primer!

The case was thrown out on two well-founded legal principals without telling any details of the event.

I was offered a very similar case in Louisiana claiming a remaining ember caused injury, but I declined. It was later won and Knight Rifles paid.

In 2008 was the Jain case I wrote about in my book. Same rifle, but different circumstances unrelated to loading the gun.

I've been in the gun business nearly 50 years and this is the FIRST time I've ever heard of 'dieseling' in a muzzle loader. If it is the result of the propellant, that should preclude it's use in muzzle loading firearms! BP doesn't do that!

I'm not convinced a burning ember can cause a discharge, either. Nobody loads in a big hurry without cleaning more than the infantry and I've never heard of it being a problem in battle. (Stacks of un-shot loads have been found because the troop forgot the cap several times in a row.) Embers left in the bore let you know of their presence when the charge is dumped in (That's why charges are dumped one at a time instead of 'from the can'), not after the ball is seated...and if its not seated there will be evidence in the bore visible by bore-scope. That means the ember had to be 'pressed on' by the seating of the ball on the propellant to ignite BP or substitute? Sorry. I can't swear to that!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Jack;

I talked to Mr. Hartman and he had set the rifle aside and walked down to check his target then walked back and loaded the rifle.
From his description of the events he said that he primed the rifle prior to charging the barrel. It discharged then when he seated the bullet.
I asked him why he primed it first and he stated that he just always did it that way!
Yes seeing the primer would have been Huge! With such a tiny vent in the priming chamber a lot of pressure could be built!
Did you watch the fire piston video?
I made my own fire piston right after that and I question why you think Black Powder will not burn this way???
I just used nitrated paper towel in my fire piston.
Yes the Ember in the barrel is a long time caution and I am sure it is valid but I have never seen a charge ignite in the barrel from this and I have shot in BP shoots where teams are cutting off 4X4's in a timed event and granted I was aware of such things but we loaded just as fast as can be,
I was loading with powder poured into my palm just like stories I had read about Simon Kenton from the post Revolution period!
I mostly shoot Flint guns but also have Caplocks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,342 Posts
gbro--
It would be fascinating to find out why his lawyer didn't contact a lawyer that had just beat them in court....the only explanation I can see was that the primer was lost and nobody looked for or found the 'track' it surely made if it fired with the bolt open. If it shot as the bolt closed, by design, it would have the fixed firing pin dimple.

That rifle, unless the design has been changed, had/has a trigger shown to be defective.

I have a PACER account and might download the testimony of his expert, at least, to find out the theory of the occurrence and the evidence for it.

Why not hydraulically? Because that would have been the way all artillery fuses were made if all it took was compression of air to fire them. (and I'd just now be getting out of jail from making explosive arrows).
MANY organics will flash on compression, diesel fuel is the best known, but wheat dust and propane will too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
"I've been in the gun business nearly 50 years and this is the FIRST time I've ever heard of 'dieseling' in a muzzle loader. If it is the result of the propellant, that should preclude it's use in muzzle loading firearms! BP doesn't do that!"

Been shooting muzzleloaders since the early 1960s and have never heard of something called "dieseling".

The Mensa candidate in the linked case capped his muzzleloader prior to loading. Yep, he was trying to pound a patched round ball into the muzzle of a capped gun. That's asking to get killed.

For years i attended muzzleloader shooting matches. i specifically asked about the "embers" claim. No one ever heard of a discharge while loading an uncapped gun.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
[Quote from JBelk"I've been in the gun business nearly 50 years and this is the FIRST time I've ever heard of 'dieseling' in a muzzle loader. If it is the result of the propellant, that should preclude it's use in muzzle loading firearms! BP doesn't do that!]"

Been shooting muzzleloaders since the early 1960s and have never heard of something called "dieseling".

The Mensa candidate in the linked case capped his muzzleloader prior to loading. Yep, he was trying to pound a patched round ball into the muzzle of a capped gun. That's asking to get killed.

For years i attended muzzleloader shooting matches. i specifically asked about the "embers" claim. No one ever heard of a discharge while loading an uncapped gun.
I understand what you are saying about the "Embers".
But did you watch the video about the "Fire Piston"?
Just what is there different in theory between the two??
I did some testing on the Battery Cup primers and high pressure back when this happened with compressed air in the 3,500psi range applied to the back side and never had one ignite or blow then another poster joined in and related how his Muzzle Loader with Pyrodex had discharged in much the same way when he was reloading after getting a shot on an Elk.
The forum posts we were communicating was The Firing Line/Black Powder Cowboy action
Post 25 is the other hunter injured and post 36 is his hunting buddy verifying this story and more.
It was the second victim that brought the fire piston into the discussion.
last evening i could not pull up this thread from 2009 and tonight is popped up with the same search words???
Both of the injured in this 2009 tread have not posted since 2009.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,342 Posts
Seems like somebody's military would have reported it should it have happened because the 'one smooth stroke seating' has been 'standard' since circa 1450.

A bicycle pump puts out what, 50 PSI? You might get twelve from a half inch bore 24 inches long. That would take a lot of Glow Plug before firing. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,325 Posts
Agree JBelk. I remove a fired cap before loading and never prime before---JUST WHY? I never had an EMBER left in the bore either but forcing air out through the nipple might heat the air enough to light a cap and I still do not understand putting a cap on before loading, Darwin thing for sure. The cap restricts air removal. It will get hot. Might light a gun off if a flinter with a primed pan.
I read the thing from the Firing Line but think he put a new primer on before loading.
Sorry 66 years with the ML leaves me confused at what some do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
I would be more inclined to think that was a mist of oil or some protectant in the barrel exiting...and not smoke.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top