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Discussion Starter #1
I have been shooting 30 caliber paper patched bullets for the las few years,and have developed a very satisfactory load with a bullet from a custom mold.
The mold drops a purelead bullet at .304 diameter,and I must size it down to .301 for best results. When i do this in two sizing operations,the bullet is not distorted,and shoots very well.
I decided to buy a new mold for the same bullet.It would drop a bullet of only .301 diameter.
The new mold actually drops a tapered bullet;measuring .301 in the front,but .302 in the rear.
I cast and sorted 70 bullets and loaded half of them "as cast",and the remaining ones sized with the same .301 sizer that I use on my old bullets.
I intended to determine which bullet would perform the best.
Unfortunetly,both bullets shoot groups over twice the size of my old bullet. In two trips to the range,the results are the same.
I admit to be positively perplexed!
There is another small difference in the two bullets. With the same adjustment,the new bullet is seated .0001 deeper;so the ogive is a tad fatter.
Can anybody shed any light on this? The bullet looks perfect.
Thanks,
Frank
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Just a guess, but sizing down the larger bullet may have helped ensure that it is perfectly round. The smaller bullets may not be perfect right out of the mould.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
strange problem

Mike,
Thanks,but I did size half of the bullets in the same sizer that I use for my old bullet.
In two trips to the range with the new bullets,both sized and unsized bullets gave similar accuracy.
Frank
 

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Kragman Thanks for this post, I need a stress reliever this morning!
I also shoot paper patch bullets with smokeless powder in "modern" cartridges.
What is your as-patched diameter? I have also patched oversize bullets. In the .356 I shoot the RCBS 200 gc patched and saized, after patching to .359". Have you changed paper? I have found that some bullets prefer thick and others thin paper. I use Lee case resizing lubricant for lubing patched bullets. This is die makers wax and works well.
I have not found sizing patched bullets to hurt accuracy. I think that the larger ogive is good as it helps to fill the throat. Could your paper be failing? Some bullet and powder combinations are hard on thin paper.
My best patched bullets is the NEI #37 .301" dia 162 grain bullet. In the .307 this bullet will equal or exceed anything jacketed variety will do, when patched with 50% or better cotton bond typing paper. Less than 50% and this bullet is not happy.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
paper patching

William.
Glad to hear from you.
I'm shooting the 30/30 Winchester,and my core diameter is .301.I wrap with #9 onionskin paper which adds .007 to the diameter,bringing it up to .308.
In the begining,I tried various papers of different weight and strength,but once I developed a good load with #9 paper,I never tried any thing else.
In general,any bullet that I size that has been wrapped,is less accurate then one that has the core sized instead.The only exception is in my 30/40 Krag.The only load that is any good at all,has the .313 wrapped bullet sized to .311.
To answer your question. The paper is not failing.The two disapointing loads are clones of the accurate one,except for the bullet cores.
I'm using Lee liquid Alox lube,and like it.But I admit that I don't know much about different lubes.I intend to try Midway Drop Out and 50/50 alox/beeswax;I'll try Lee case lube too.(in these problem loads) I will also try #16 paper.
All of this is now on the back burner.Hunting season starts Monday,and everything else is a distraction.
Keep shooting,
Frank
 

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Kragman
Have you tried folding your patch tails? With some problem powders I have folded the tails on the theory that they provide a wad that protects the bullet base. In the .356 with ball powders this has helped.
Your paper is about .00175"? Have you tried bringing the patch well up on the nose? Funny how some throats and barrels like a tall patch that engages the rifling. Other barrels will allow the patch to be well down near the case mouth.
Good luck hunting, our deer are in very good shape (fat and flesh wise) this year, after three dry and lean years.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
strange problem

William,
Thanks for the tip. I recall that Paul Matthews suggests placing the front edge of the paper well onto the ogive,for problem bullets. That will be my first correction.
About tails. I twist them all,and then cut them off close to the bullet base.Except for an occasional "peep hole"the base is completely covered.
How hard a bullet do ypu use for hunting? Mine is BHN #6;almost pure lead.
Bop that Buck!
Frank
 

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Kragman,
Ilike 11 to 14 bhn for hunting bullets. We have a BHn tester at work. Any softer and I have trouble seating the .30 caliber bullets. They are so soft the can bend !
I have never had a problem with a lack of penetration with soft lead bullets but I have had hard bullets drill holes!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
bending bullets

Hey,Slim,are you expanding your cases before trying to seat the bullets?
I expand my cases with the Lyman "M" die,and I chamfer the case mouths. The bullet seats quite easily.I don't want a tight fit because it might damage the paper jacket.I also have a .311 expander which I use when I wrap with #16 paper,instead of #9.
Frank:confused:
 

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Kragman,
I like that "handle" - I like Krags! and the "Cubman's" PA-18 Cub's!
Yes I am using a Lyman M die also. My NEI bullet casts about .301". It is long for its weight - 162 grains - and I cast them from recovered .22 lr bullets. They are VERY soft! They shoot with the same accuracy as any jacketed bullet in my .307 Winchester. I use thick paper for them, 100% cotton bond is what my rifle seems to like best. It will work with 50% cotton paper. Other bullets work well for me with thin paper but this particular bullet likes thick paper.
I lube the patched bullets with Lee cartridge case sizing lubricant by hand. This is a die makers wax. When the wax is dry I then size to .312" in a Lee push through sizer. The paper looks like ceramic when sized with the wax coating and is very tough. The loaded rounds feed through the magazine with no damage. The paper engages the rifling when the rounds are chambered.
The same technique works in most of my Winchester .30-30's. I have a Marlin 336 that does not like patched bullets. It's not the micro grooves but the origin of the rifling at the throat, a little abrupt I think.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
paper patch problems

William Iorg,
Are you having problems with your bullets bending with a BHN of 14?
The hardest alloy that I have ever used in a paper patched core is BHN#10.Most of them are BHN#6;pure lead is onlyBHN#5.Do you mean that the bullet is bending when it is fired? A 170 grain bullet of this ,almost pure lead alloy,hit a 120#Whitetail at about 2000FPS inthe shoulder and was hard enough to pass completely through,and exit .
So far,I've been dissatisfied with the accuracy of all the bullets that I sized,after patching with paper.
Frank:confused:
 

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Kragman,

no i prefer them to be 11 to 14 bhn now. I have loaded many from reclaimed .22 Lr which comes out of the mold at less than 10 bhn. I still like the hunting results from reclaimed .22 lr bullets. I recently moved up to 11 to 14 bhn based on some writings of Norm Johnson over on the cast bulet site. The soft bullets would bend if you were not careful seating them. My NEI bullet is rather long. I started with soft bullets based on Paul Matthews results in his .375 H&H. An old Gun Digest article - I think. I have only had access to a BHN tester for about a year.
We must be shooting about the same velocity. My .307 with an accuracy load of 40.0 gr of IMR 4064 gives about 2300 fps from my 20" barrel. Impact velocities would be about 2000 fps or less. Accuracy of less than three inches at 100 yards is reasonably easy with a 1.5 X 5 scope from the bench. If I am not careful the same load on the same day will shoot 4.5 to 5". When the groups open up there is not much doubt where the problem is - Me! My very best groups have been in the 1.5" range with this particular bullet, and not many of those. I have better results with folded tails rather than twisted and trimmed.
I have found that the slightly harder bullets give more uniform velocities from my rifle. Have you encountered higher extreme spreads with softer bullets?
Have you tried straight bees wax as a lubricant?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
patched bullets

William Iorg,
There seems to be some commonality between our efforts.
I shoot a 170 grain bullet in my 30/30 at 2150FPS,and at 50-or 60 yards is hits at around 2000FPS. I use 30.5 grains of IMR 303.
I also use a Loophole 1X--5X scope.
I don't have any extensive Chrono data for this round.I used it when I developed this load,but not,at all,this year.
I can't talk about velocity ES,but I,too,have a great variation in accuracy.With the same load,I get different POI and ES,on different days.It HAS to be Me.
I never tried pure bees wax,but did try Matthew's 60% beeswax with vasiline,aand don't like it. It's too much trouble to apply,without better results then Lee Alox.
I never tried shooting with tails,my bullet is flat based. I twist tight,and clip close and use a wax wad. All of my successful loads with paper patched bullets use a wax wad.
Being Primarily Irish,I still cannot understand why your bullets are bending.My bullets get deformed very easily,if I am careless in seating them,but I've never had a bent one.
Keep Shooting,
Frank
 

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Kragman,
There is commonality in our effort.
Strange, but everyone who loads .30-30 very long ends up using IMR 3031 and between 29.5 and 31.0 grains. Velocity varies between barrels but 2140 to 2180 or so seems about the norm. H.V. Stent back in the late '40's settled on 30.5 grains as his basic load. We are seeing an improvement in accuracy and an increase in velocity with Hodgdon Varget and Alliant Reloader 15 in the standard .30-30 and are just starting to play with the .30-30 improved. One or the other will replace 3031 in time.
Consistent accuracy from the bench with lever guns is sure tough. When you get the left/right portion right then you start stringing them up and down. My father (in his early '70's) is considerably more consistant than I (50 years young). But even he has to fight stringing them up and down.
Front sights are a real problem with iron sights. The manufacturers insist on those round beads that reflect light in odd ways. Target type and size has a lot to do with it too.
My Dad has become a big fan of pure bees wax on his patches with black powder in the .45-70. He is still looking for the right way to keep fouling soft. For smokeless loads he likes the Lee lube also.
We have played with wax, cork and paper wads. The theme seems to be that wads help.
We have tried a number of different die sets. I am begining to think that Lee has a pretty good bullet seating stem and method of keeping things straight. I am probably not getting the right words on "paper" to explain what my problem was with the bending.
One thing I am convinced of, below 2500 fps you can probably work up a good hunting load with soft paper patch bullets, regardless of caliber. In the 2100 fps and less range acceptable hunting loads are not at all difficult. Bragging groups on paper are different story!
 
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