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As many on this forum know, I love the Savage 24 series of over-under shotgun/rifles.   These combo guns give me a great amount of pleasure and versatility in the field.

My very first of these guns was Savage 24 in .410/.22LR.  It is about as much fun as someone should be allowed to have with a walk around the field gun!  It is one of the older models with the side lever to open the action, and is still in nearly mint condition after many years of continual (but careful) use.

The .22 barrel on this gun shoots better than my eyes can acquire a target, and shoots equally well with .22 shorts and CB's.

I rarely shoot 3" .410 shells in it though, preferring to use the standard 2 1/2" shells loaded with 1/2 oz of shot.  Generally I load 7 1/2 shot for most uses I give the .410, shooting farm/forest pests, grouse, rabbits and such, as the 7 1/2's give an excellent pattern out of my full choke tube.  I also find that a load of 5's do wonders as well.

Both loads use this data:

1/2 oz. shot/WW410 shotcup/WW209 Primer/14.9g WC820 Powder/Remington 2 1/2" .410 hulls/ loaded on Mec 600JrMK5 loader./Results are very gratifying, with a nice even pattern without holes or clusters.

Now, for the load with teeth!  I occasionally run into feral dogs and coyotes when bumming around with the little combo gun, especially in early grouse season here in the Idaho Panhandle.  I like more punch on them than a .22LR if available.

That load is using four .313" roundballs, otherwise known as 00 Buckshot.  These are cast out of our normal bullet alloy, and are not heat-treated, giving a BHN of 12.  Four of these will fit very neatly and snugly in the Winchester .410 shotcup listed above, with plenty of room for a nice, traditional fold crimp.  I use the very same data as the shot load listed above, but substitute the four .313" roundballs for shot.  

After seating the wad on top of the powder with 30 lbs. wad pressure on the Mec Loader, I then add the buckshot one at a time, using common cooking flour for a filler on top of each buckshot, vibrating it into position around the buckshot by means of a vibratory pad sander turned upside-down, and turned on, then just holding the shell upright on the pad util the flour sifts its way down around the flour, adding it in very small amounts until just the top of the buckshot is visible, then adding another, then repeating the flour addition and vibration as described above.  Continue this process until all four buckshot have been added to the shell, and only the top of the last buckshot is just barely visible through the flour that has been vibrated on top of it.  Now, crimp as you would any other shell.

I have used flour in these shells since I developed the load many years ago.  Today Super Grex might be a better alternative, but my load isn't broken yet, so I haven't tried to fix it!

This load. out of the .410 shotguns we own here, will produce a neat, square pattern that is about five inches square with the four buckshot when patterning at 35 yards!  Not bad for a little .410 2 1/2" shotshell.  This load I described punches out the bore at about 1220 fps from our shotguns.  More fire under the charge just blows the pattern apart in my experience.

Now, about on target performance!  This load is really amazing when all four of those 44 grian pills impact a 4"-5" area at once on something the size of a 70-90 pound feral dog!  Out to 45 yards (farthest tested), it is lights out!  No recovered buckshot (remember these are fairly hard), and boiler room hits create nearly instant incapacitation, even on adrenalized critters of this size.

No, this load does not make the .410 bore a kills all!  But it does flex more muscle than it otherwise would.  I would far rather use this four ball load than any slug load in a .410 shotgun!

I remember a well-read publication where the author stated that "using a .410 in the field was either a mistake or a stunt"  This fellow obviously either never carried one afield, or didn't respect the range limitations of the gun.  It can, and is very much a pleasure in the field for the type of applications it was designed to do and an effective partner in the field.

Enjoy giving teeth to your pipsqueak shotgun!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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What I often thought would be neat is seating an appropriate size cast bullet in the shotcup of a 410 that would allow a proper folded crimp. Sort of like the Lee Slug but for the 410 and with a flat nose to boot. That would be a fun project to try I bet. I'm not sure what diameter bullet would fit though.

The wheels are turning................. wish I had a 410. heh,heh.




:cool:
 

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Many years ago, at a gun show in Bradenton, Florida, I met a fine Old Gentleman from up in "The Scrub" near Ocala. On his table there was a like new Mod 24 22/410. After some dickering I walk away with it less the &#36150.00 I had in my pocket. I mean this gun looked new! There was not a scratch on the wood. As I walked back to my table, thining about my new squirrel and rabbit gun, I saw Cissey homing it on me and the new toy. Needless to say, she lets me use "her" mod 24 "sometimes"! A few yaers ago, at the Sheriff Department, I managed to pull the barrels off a nice 24 before it took the deep six in the Gulf. This set of barrels were cut to 20", front sight remounted, fine sand blasted, baked flat Acra-Coat fron Brownells, and fitted to Cissey gun. That set of barrels is deadly with the "new" Rottweil 3" "Magnum" Brenneke slugs. While in Italy I gained a real respect for the Brenneke 12 ga on some big hogs in Southern Austria. I tried the #000 bukshot was not impressed with the group,even within .410 range. I assure you I am going to make some #00 with Marshall's recipe. Have you seem the ad "Works like a Swiss pocketknife, but shoots.............." Yep, the little CZ that's copy longer barrel version of the SAC gun. I got one and it rides the river" with me.In the trap it has a supply of Rem .22 Sub-sonics. #7 1/2 shotshells. and a couple Brennekes. The stupid trigger guard has been taken off like the original and it folds up into a neat 18" package. I will not discussed what all we have put in the frezzer off the river with that little gun! We have talked lately about "fun" guns!!!!! I have three pistols, one of which is with me "all the time" Thanks to Florida's laws....For around the Hammock, it's a S&W "original" mod 640 primed with 3-#0 buckshot in a Speer capsule or 125 gr +p HP"S, The next is my "Road and Walking" gun, which is a S&W 686 6" with Pacs. Now it travels with six 185 gr FNGC on top of 16 grs of WW296, and last, but not, least is my serious "Swamp Crawler" .44 Ruger SBH full of .44 LFN's on top of 14 grs of AA5. These are my "fun" pistols!!! Here in Old Florida we go to the Meat store to buy beef. the rest of the time we shop "The Frezzer"!I think some of you all out there understand what I mean! Let's keep up with "Fun" guns!
Best Regards from the Hammock....James  
 

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I have acquired a Springfield M6 in 22 Hornet/410 for wilderness canoe and snowshoe/skidoo trips in the NWT. Would like to set it up to forage for big game and bear defense in an emergency (yes I know it's light). Have had encouraging results on wet news print using 45 Barnes X for the Hornet and I am trying to get the 410 up to snuff. I have played with 5, oo Buckshot in a 3" shell and with a combined weight of 270 grains this is a fairly powerful load. A bit skeptical about penetration and would rather have a slug. Seems to me the existing slugs are ridiculously light. Even the Brenneke is only 110 grains. In 12 and 20 guage slugs weight about the same as the weight of shot. Why is it only 1/3 the weight in a 410? Heaviest I have found is 140 grains from a casting competetitor to the owners of this site.
Are heavy weight slugs available
Are heavy weight slugs ( 200 grain +) possible, ballistically from a 410?
Where do you buy a roll crimper for 410?
Where do you find load data for slugs and buck shot for the 410?
Anyone know were I can find an old lee loader in 410 (long discontinued)
 

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Was playing with 3" paper cased (with the roll crimp) .410's and discovered that FIVE buck (000) would fit (with the 5th just at the roll crimp). Have no pressure equipment, but from all I could tell the load caused no grief in the guns I fired it in.

This was in the early 1980's, and at a local combat match, there was a flier for a shotgun-side-match. Read it carefully ( I knew the guy who was running it), and he neglected to add a gauge restriction....just so many rounds of buckshot and so many rounds of slug required. Deciede to take the .410 to the match.

He really didn't want to let me shoot, but after discussing it and showing him the paper he sent out (and he already signed me in), he let me shoot.

To really get him PO'ed, I had buffered the buck shot with GLITTER (wife is a K-teacher). Kind of pretty, all the multi-colored buffer mateial hangind in the afternoon sunlight.

End result...the slugs are WHIMPY, but as all we had to shoot with them were paper (the stop plate could be hit with any load) they worked for the match. Buckshot loads don't have to be whimpy...pretty much running at the same speed as a 12ga., just less shot.,

Nope...didn't win...came in 2nd out of 18 shooters who particdipated in the side match. Next side-match did have a minimum gauge requirment.
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At one point there was a bunch of Brit. SMLE single shot "forrager guns" for sale. ****ed strong action for a .410. (turned out to need to be .408" to pass the no-choke bore). With that, a case full of FFg, and a cast .41mag. bullet screwed to a fiber wad it got impressive. Wouldn't want to fire that in a normal shot gun, but moving 228gr. of lead/screw/wad out at 1250fps gets noticed (accuracy was a bit sucky...but that could be improved).
 

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I had always wished wished wished that savage would make the 24 with a .243 / 12ga.! I had a friend with the 30.30 over the 12 and he loaded with Barnes 30 cal boattail hollowpoint.
Now this is definitely taboo in a lever gun, but he didn't own a lever gun. Worked Great on deer on down to coyotes! By the way, How expensive is the 24 these days? anyone know? th fish
 

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Stevens Model 22-410

Shortly after returning home from WWII my father bought a Stevens Model 22-410. It is the one with the Tenite (plastic) stock and forearm. In the mid 1950's when I was 9 years old he bought a Stevens Model 311 16 gage double barrel shotgun and you can just imagine the excitement and my big grin when he gave me the little 22-410. Included were 6 boxes of 22 shorts and 4 boxes of 3" #6's. That gun accounted for many a dove, squrril, and rabbit.

I asked him why he bought such a "little gun" and his reply was that during the war he was the squad's "BAR Man" and was sick and tired of all of the noise associted with warfare.

Fast foreward to 2002. I still squrril hunt with that "little gun" and amaze my 12 gage totin' friends how fast one can limit-out with the 22-410.
 

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Mr. Gates

Didn't you develop a heavy, hard hitting slug for the .410?

I too would love to have a heavy slug load for the .410. To my mind a 200gr flat nosed bullet screwed to a 1/2" fiber wad would be a pretty good place to start. If you used an all brass case (I believe the .444 Marlin can be re-sized to fit) you should be able to get velocities up around 1,500fps. Accuracy would be another matter all together but anything inside 8"at 100yds should be suitable for the "just in case" kind of use I have in mind. It would also exceed by a significant margin the power level available to the 10mm handgun making it a not too outlandish defensive load. My thoughts are that if a bear is going to attack you, it is better to let him get REAL close before you take the one shot you have. Besides, the charge might just be a bluff.

Will the beartooth 10mm/.41 bullets fit down the bore and choke of a .410 shotgun? If so, they might make an interesting starting point for this project.
 

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When I got out of the Navy in the middle 70s the first shotgun I bought was an H&R Topper in .410. I bought all manner of shot and slug loads for it but remember only shooting one squirrel with it. When I let fly with that load of #6s it really unnerved my hunting buddies as they were using .22 lr rifles.

It didn't take long before I had convinced myself I needed something bigger and better. So I traded the Topper in for a Savage model 24 "Camper Special". The unit came in .22 lr on top of a 20 gauge barrel. The barrels were only 20" long and the shotgun barrel had an Improved Cylinder (fixed)choke. Popping the fore-end and barrels off allowed it to be packed in a leather looking vinyl padded carrying case that came with it. The straight grip and short barrels made for a handy, quick swinging outfit for busting bunnies and sniping squirrels. For a woods walking gun it was the cats pajamas. I sure wish I still had it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I've still got my Camper Special model 24 Savage that you describe. In fact, it's my "shop gun", and lives by the workbench in my shop for the odd varmint or predator that happens to invade my garden while I'm working in the shop watching out the windows over my workbench. It too is the "extra" gun that goes with me big game hunting as a general rule as the "truck gun". It's piled up lots of small game and its share of coyotes and grey fox over the years.

Even had a neighbor and good friend who knows of my affinity for the little "camper" and made me a 7.62x39 barrel insert for the .20 ga barrel. It's turned out of an old SMLE .303 British barrel, and when slipped inside the .20 ga barrel, shoots Russian Hollowpoint SKS ammo only two inches high to the point of aim of the sights at 50 yards. You must align the index marks peened on the rear of the rifle barrel insert with the extractor for reliably insuring that it will shoot to point of aim, because if installed in another rotational orientation in the shotgun barrel, it will shoot to another point of aim. Cool little gun, and a neat addition to an already outstanding package.

Can't understand why Savage discontinued the model, as it was probably the most practical and versatile of all the little 24's they made.

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Heavy 410 Slugs?

This ain't exactly a HEAVY SLUG for a 410, but it's about twice the weight of what all the manufacturers load... The bullet I'm talkin' about is the 180gr HOLLOW-BASE cast bullets for the old 41 Long Colt. They're 0.387" diameter. Just for comparison, a 410 Full Choke =.015 - .395" Bore & 410 Extra Full = .021 - .389" Bore.



ABOVE: 180gr ~ .387" diameter hollow base bullet for 41Long Colt Revolver


Something interesting - check the 410 loads on this link below and then compare the recommended 14.5gr/2400 charge to a known rifle or pistol cartridge shooting a similar weight bullet... Pressures in a 410 with this charge and a heavy shot load don't top 13000psi according to Alliant. It would be even less with a slick 7/16oz slug instead of a heavy shot load.

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=shotgun&step=1&_function2=setJavascriptFlag&gauge=410&guntypeID=[url] You can make your own brass 410 cases from 303 British, 444 Marlin, and 9.3x74R rifle cases. [url]http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

Anyone else interested in knowing the pressures from a load like this? I think it offers lotsa' possibilities to those in shotgun only States who already own a little 410 and don't want to shoot heavy slugs or sabots in a big bore shotgun.
Marshall could probably cast some of these bullets from #2 bullet alloy and they would still expand enough in the base to seal a 410 barrel. Any guesses what this bullet/charge would run out of a 410 shotgun? The same powder charge behind a 180gr cast bullet in a 38spl case from a Win94 clocks real close to 2,000fps.

GOOD LUCK! ;)
 

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Kind of expadning on some things mentioned in an eaarlier post:

Had one of the Enfiled .410 smoothbores...figured that action would stand up to some foolishness and the barrels were almost chokeless (Almost becasue tehre was a slight restriction under ther ear sight, but that's not a choke).

Also have an old Lyman #41027...this is a 210gr. HBWC .410" bullet. Had to experiment with sizing them a bit, but at .408" they just barely wouldn't slide through the bore under gravity...407" fell straight through.

Feeling a bit cautious, used .444cases and FFFG. With the bullet supplying a bit of compression when seated 1/2 way into the case, gave them a try.


Velocity was just at 1150fps...they hit point foreward about 70% of the time. Attaching a fiber wad to the base seemed to help keeping them point forward, but didn't do accuarcy much good.

On to 3" shotshells (this version of the Enfield was reamed to 3" by the importer) full of FFFg and the bullet seated the same distance. Unfortunately, this one earned me my first set of sky screens on the first shot.

Jusging by the felt recoil and increased penetrtion, figure this one was good for about 100fps more...and even with black, probably WELL above anything a "normal" .410 should be subjected to. Hitting point on was random...seemed to hit that way about as often as they hit in anyother orientation, and made a devil of a "wizzzing" sound when fired over an open field.

Were I to do this kind of thing again, would probably (1) abandon the hard to case hollow base bullet (2) attach the bottom of a shot cup to a solid base bullet...give it that "sock in a rock" balance and (3) cut the powder charge back considerably if using somthing besides a 40K proofed action (and all the while I was goofing off with these, was keenly aware that the barrels weren't designed for this kind of abuse even if the action was).
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Best guess is that these loads earned about 18-22,000 CUP....how that would relat to LUP is debateable; it certainly would be over 60% more than the max. a .410 is rated for, and possibly as much as 120% higher than what most real-life loaded ammo produces.
 

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Hmmmmm....
I know of two of the model 24's for sale...
1 a 20/22lr combo...$295
the other, a 22hornet/20 combo...$330
Are they worth the money?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
If you like the combo guns they are well worth the money! I like the .22LR/20 combo guns very much, as they are so versatile. Received an email not long ago from a forum member asking if I knew where to get a Camper Special these days. Hadn't seen one for sale literally in years. To my surprise I looked online and found one at Gunbroker.com and then two more on GunsAmerica.com. One was NIB!! Can you beleive that? Anyhow bottom line was between 300-350 for the two used guns and around 400 for the NIB gun. They're out there, albeit sporadically so it would seem.

Chris, if you've got the sweet tooth for a fun little do everything but big game gun, then I'd sure spring for one!

Let us know what you do!

God bless,
 

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Just thinking out loud, but put a 20ga. slug in that sucker and I'll have a darn fine deer slugger......along with the ability to take small game with the hornet.

These combo guns are not really movers, so I'm guessing that they are still gonna be there when I scrape up the $$$.
 

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I can't wait to try some of these ball loads out of my Magnum Research BFR 410 revolver. i will load some up saturday morning and give them a try. I wonder if i should leave choke in or take it out? Anybody have any ideas? I have been a 410 nut for a long time. I started my hunting with a early tenite stock model 24. In 1981 it was ruined in a house fire. I still have whats left. I have had a contender in 410 for many years. Really light and compact. Took many bunnies and grouse with it. I wanted something with more rounds and a buddy has a D max industries superblackhawk that was converted to 410 I loved it from the first time he let me fire it. But he would not get rid of it. I checked all over and found the Magnum Research 410. These are one of the finest built guns I have ever laid hands on, Almost as good as my Freedom Arms 454 casull. It patterns very well with Remington 3" 7 1/2 out to 30 yards. Number 6 is blown for some reason. The 2 1/2 inch 7 1/2 are beautiful and even. I limit them and myself to 25 yards. Really nice. But the kicker is they cost 899.00. Hard time paying that for a "specialty pistol". So I traded in a couple of other guns to get price down. For those of you out there with Contenders, Buy a 410 barrel for it, You will never regret it. Enjoy and God Bless
 

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lee loader for 410

there are a lot of lee loader sets going on ebay lately. in the last 6 months there has meen a lot of attention to the 410 and a lot of equipment is going on sale.
 

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Well.....

Been working on this conceptually for a while and finally got some hands-on guys to work with my SWAGs...

FWIW, I will shortly have some solid data on a 140gr .412 Hollow Base RFN slug that pushes out at around 1900fps and doesn't tumble....

And (possibly) a 180gr version later.

THAT makes the .410 a bit more interesting...
 

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410nick said:
there are a lot of lee loader sets going on ebay lately. in the last 6 months there has meen a lot of attention to the 410 and a lot of equipment is going on sale.
Start yelling at LEE to make another run of the things.

I really hate to be the only guy dunning them year after year...
 

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I too started out with a 22/410 Stevens and is still my chicken (sharp tail) and partridge gun. The best shooting 22 that I own. I fell so in love with the combo gun that I managed to find a Tika Turkey Gun, a 12 guage on top of a .222 Rem. We don't have turkeys around here but it sure makes a fine varmit gun. I am definatley going to try the buck shot loads in my .410.
 
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