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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This covers many areas in our forum, but I am going to take the time to setup some stud walls, like in most homes build from the 60 on. I will probably put in cross members and some wiring and wall boxes for just in case.

Behind the wall, I will build another wall, but made out of 2 liter pop bottles filled with water, 3 feet behind the stud wall.

In front of the wall I will setup some balastic gel, that will be about 10 inchs thick, not sure about the dimensions yet, but it will be a human torso when I get done.

The firing distances I have chosen are 5 ft, 10 ft and 15 ft.

Here is what I am going to use to test the reults

Pistols

J-Frame 38 Spl +P 2inch barrel
L Frame 357 Mag 6 inch Barrel
Glock 17 9mm
Sig P220 45 ACP

Shotgun loads, using an 870, 12g , smooth bore with appropriate choke.

#4 Shot 2 -3/4" shell
00 Buck 9 pellets 2 - 3/4" shell
1 Ounce Rifled Deer Slug 2 - 3/4" shell
1 3/8 ounce Rifled Deer Slug 3" shell

If time and Materials Allow, I will be using an AR-15 and a Mini 30 These will be stock weapons.

.223/5.56 NATO, what ever the store has (but not Wolf)
7.62 x 39 - my own reloads.


If I can, I will do this at Twilight and basically hip firing. So this is going to be point and shoot. As you would find in many, but not all self defense situation, aiming really isn't an option due to time. If any one would like to join me in doing this, please be my quest, if any wants to contribute materials that will also be welcomed. If any one want to do a competive test with documentation that would be great. All ammo will be from the store except the 7.62 x 39, my Mini 30 has a .308 bore, so I load .308 bullets, not the Warsaw Pac .311 bullets. I don't like Wolf Ammo because it is too dirty for me, but please be my quest, set up the same situation and use what ever ammo you want. The more data, the better.

I want to see how many of the 2 litter pop bottles behind the torso and the wall will be struck by the projectiles.

Jerry
 

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Piney Woods Moderator
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Just wait till your favorite neighbor is on vacation and use his house to test your loads.:)

Looking forward to seeing your results.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Only if your are willing to pay for the damages.

Jerry
 

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you should set this up on a few forums. and set up mission statements and what you are trying to accomplish exactly.

do it scientifically and you know you could get sponsorships
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have a couple of places that want to give me materials, not sure how to setup a forum. I have 6 sessions, each day long classes to teach Close Quarter Combat this summer. I can be brutal to get my point across, but if it saves some one's life it is worth it. I make the High Ropes training look like sissy games.

But instead of reading from a book, I prove my point and record my data. After being an academic for many years I know how to collect data and present my findings.

Before I was an academic I was a Infantry Soldier, being the smallest guy in my training class I had to fight my way to the top.

Jerry
 

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The "Box of Truth " web site is still up and running. I know you want to have the fun yourself, but if you want info on such things, this site has about everything. Check it out if you have not, MJ.
 

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Looking at the experiment described, I'm not clear on its purpose? Do you want to see what over penetration does or see if you have a round that can shoot through a wall to hit someone taking cover behind it? In either case, it seems to me you would want the ballistic gelatin behind the wall, and not in front, so you can see if there is serious wounding done to it after the wall has been penetrated?

The emphasis on housing structure penetration puts the emphasis on home defense. Home represents security, and humans seem to be psychologically biased by that to assume home is where we will most likely need to defend ourselves. Paxton Quiqley said something like 80% of stranger assaults on women actually occur when they are in transit between home or work or school or shopping and any one of the others. So, logically, that should be the most practiced self-defense scenario for women. I don't have any information on that for men, but they may well be similar? Such scenarios will involve minding Rule 4, so that misses don't go haring off into the neighborhood. I believe aimed fire is the only way to do that reliably beyond arm's length most of the time, but YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Using the word Logically offends me, have you ever had a gun stuck in your face? There is no logic at that moment, I know it happened to me.

My experiment is to show that if a person shoots their 9mm or their 12 gauge at a perp in their home what is going to happen. Having ballistic gel behind the wall is a great idea, but it is not in my budget.

Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Nick,

Since you live in central Ohio, what level was the over penetration from the Freeway Shooters, about 5 or 6 years ago? Didn't one bullet went thru the driver side car door and kill a passemger this was from across I-270 from the woods? From I-270 to one of the old schools left over from Rickenbacker AFB, didn't a bullet go thru a heavy plate glass window kept going in a straight line and ended up in an old fashion plaster and concrete wall, now that is over travel and over penetration. That was a 9mm pistol.

There was a place down on front street called the Water Works, you could eat dinner in a bath tub, plus it was a great place to meet the ladies. A punk two blocks or so from that place tried to hold me up. His mistake was simple, he was too close to me. I beat the crap out of him and kicked him in the nuts several times. I took his gun, he didn't have any money or I would have taken that too. Since I have never done drugs, I didn't take what was in his pockets.

Friends told me that I should have plugged him and walked away. Even friend who were or still are cops told me that I should have wasted him. No matter what the laws were after that I was armed. As different events happened in the city and in my life, I moved out here in no where, where speeding is our most serious common crime. I don't think you can say the same for central Ohio.

Not too long ago, a person from the city stated to me that most of these crimes happen at an average of 21 feet. So he was going to practice at 21 feet, that sounds logical. Now how many of these events actually happen at 21 feet? Are you going to tell some perp to back up or move foward?

If I can shoot thru 10 inches of blastic gel, then a common house wall and burst a 2 liter pop bottle full of water, wouldn't you agree that is over penetration? That is why I really object to the use of some firearms within your own home. I have shoot plaster and lath walls they are like concrete, except where damaged or replaced. My home built in 1978, if I open up with buck shoot in my house, 00 shot will go thru my walls in to another room and do damage, It could be my big screen TV or my frig, sorry don't have any young children in my family.

Lets say you are in the Arena District and some dude sticks you up, you pull out your 9mm then shoot him twice and miss once, how many law suits are you going to have to suffer thru before you have nothing left? Wasn't there a former OSU football player that was robbing some couple with a gun when some one asked him for his autograph?

If you think the police arrive late in the city, out here they are report writers and show up late no matter how urgent. Some times it is hours. So effectively we have no LEOs, so like my neighbors told me when I moved out here, have a gun ready.

When confronted with a firearm in a hostile situation, it is logical for most people to suddenly fill their "pants".

Jerry
 

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Over-Under-Perfect ??

I teach a class on concealed carry/SD exclusively to active and retired members of the armed forces and their spouses. The subject of penetration comes up quite often and we sometimes talk about it for long periods of time. These people already have their CWP or other to CCW so they have some previous knowledge.

Other than explaining the bad of the 22Lr and the 44mag I usually try to stay out of the fray. I even hate to answer the question of,"what caliber do you carry? I simply try to leave it at,"what's good for me isn't necessarily good for you",and "do your research,study up,and decide for yourself".

The BG with 4 layers of goose down or even one layer of Kevlar will rule out the use of several different calibers. A heavy fiber filled jacket will turn a well made HP into a FMJ. A shot while he is turned sideways,first thru the bicep/tricep and/or the humerus,then into the chest wall, could yield little penetration into the vitals. And remember...the BG bleeding out IS NOT and option. Especially if he continues his attack on you and/or your family. If he dies later,your still dead or gravely wounded.

Most houses are built different. Wall material,studs,insulation,...all different. Placement of furniture also. This might be a so-so defense against his firearm but it will also be a deterrent to yours. This is why I am a fan of "strafe the wall". Depending on the weapons capacity and/or the number of BG's,send several thru the wall and/or furniture.

Of course the biggie is, who else is in the house and where are they ?? Frankly,I'm awful glad that I do not to have to make this decision. My wife and I live alone. My HD/SD weapons are all hi-caps. Carbine in .223,two Glocks with 15+1,and a couple shotguns with 8+1 of #2 lead. These are my preferences. Yours my differ.

All in all...we can only do the best that we can to protect ourselves and family. I try to stay informed as to tactics and technology. Also the never ending improvement in available equipment. Bullets,loads,chambering,weapons,all seem to change weekly. I know what my prefs are. Yours could be the same or entirely different. Probably,unless we go to some kind of paranoid extreme,we are all right.

During times like these the people that are entirely WRONG are the people that refuse to arm themselves with firearms,physical training,and knowledge of the state laws. These are the "sheeple".

Good luck to us all. ----pruhdlr
 

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Discussion Starter #11
pruhdlr

I agree with you. Every body and every circumstance is different.

Jerry
 

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Using the word Logically offends me, have you ever had a gun stuck in your face?Jerry
That reaction, over one simple word, is a bit over the top when Nick was merely trying to gain more understanding of your proposed test. Time to tone it down.
 

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Nawth East Moderatah
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.....All in all...we can only do the best that we can to protect ourselves and family. I try to stay informed as to tactics and technology. Also the never ending improvement in available equipment. Bullets,loads,chambering,weapons,all seem to change weekly. I know what my prefs are. Yours could be the same or entirely different. Probably,unless we go to some kind of paranoid extreme,we are all right.

During times like these the people that are entirely WRONG are the people that refuse to arm themselves with firearms,physical training,and knowledge of the state laws. These are the "sheeple".

Good luck to us all. ----pruhdlr

I read your entire post, but chose to quote the last 2 paragraphs.

I agree with the first one I quoted from you.
The second, I'm gonna give you an instance, and Idon't take 'offence' to the sheeple comment, but want you to just hear me out.

I lived in NJ. A state that does not allow CCW, unless you are LE, or in good graces with the judicial hierarchy. You'd have a better chance of meeting Howard Hughs than getting a CCW. Long of it, Joe Citizen CANNOT CCW. You may own handguns, and castle doctrine your home...but do not posess hollow points loaded in your firearm, because in NJ it is NOT illegal to own hollowpoints, but it is to arm yourself with them.....huh?????:confused:
So to protect yourself and your family in public, you take Self defense classes, and martial arts classes, and carry a folder in your pocket.
If you use the folder, as last ditch, you better hope the assailant had a bigger one, or something else deadlier than your folder, or you are charged with a litany of felony charges even tho it was in SD. Because you have martial arts training, [and I have seen this happen] you are charged with aggrevated assualt, even tho YOU were attacked.

There are many folks out there that would arm themselves if they could, to protect thier loved ones and themselves. Alot of times, legally, they cannot. States such as NJ, have gotten so anti-gun and anti SD, with their 'let the police handle it" attitude, that it is the law abiding joe who is at fault when he defends himself or his posessions.

States like these have let the lawyers rule the land. It's a darn shame.


**EDIT**

'scuse the off topic ramble...

Jerry,

are these tests to see what happens if you miss with your shot????
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Having read the entire thread - I don't understand the purpose of the test, either.

Are you trying to determine if you can shoot a perp through the walls, or what level of danger there is beyond the walls for people who are not the target of the shots, or ????

If you can't account for all of the people who are in your house (that you don't want shot) before you open fire, my question is why would you open fire at all?
 

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That was my question? I still don't understand what the experiment, as designed, is intended to demonstrate? If you need to develop ammunition to shoot through barriers it makes sense to study the toughest likely barrier you will encounter because that is your worst case. If you can beat it, lighter barriers will be gimmies. If, conversely, you are concerned about bullets going through a wall to hit someone you don't want to shoot, then you should address that with the weakest part of the wall, because that's what you'll hit 90% of the time. What I don't see is how randomizing bullet entry points with hip shooting helps clarify the results, but I am perfectly prepared to have that explained to me if I've missed seeing the reason for it?

That my use of the word "logically" gave offense leaves me mystified? I used it to mean it makes sense to play the odds in practice. If you are female, the odds are greatest that you will have to defend yourself in transit, so it makes sense to spend most of your practice effort preparing for that situation. I certainly did not in any way suggest you should not understand penetration in that situation. Just the opposite. Perhaps my mistake was referring to Rule 4 on the assumption it was familiar to everyone? If you know Rule 4, then you can see my point was that in the in-transit defense scenario, bullet penetration is a major concern.
Rule 4: "Be sure of your target. Know what is in front of it and know what is behind it because bullets go through things."
Jeff Cooper, speaking to the first class I took at Gunsite.
So I'm not implying you should know nothing about penetration. Again, just exactly the opposite. Having a gun pointed your way (and I have) doesn't change that.

I suspect the actual point of offense was, therefore, not my use of the word "logical", but rather my opinion that aimed fire best minimizes creating misses that go on to penetrate unintended targets. I gave that opinion with the caveat that YMMV (your mileage may vary), since different personalities respond differently to the various training systems. I don't want to hijack the thread on this point, because its another one of the hot-button topics, like which caliber is best, that gets people all worked up into a lather. But I will recommend trying to keep an open mind on the topic. There are plenty of anecdotal failures to get hits to go around among all the various systems. It is simply incorrect to make a blanket statement that one system or another cannot work under most circumstances. For each such claim it is pretty easy to come up with examples wherein it did just fine.
 
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