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It's probably my memory that confused. I have to go back and check facts a lot more frequently these days, and didn't get to reread for that. Still looks like there's an s-curve, though, just at different rates of fire for the knees than I remembered.
 

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Offering some food for thought on this war on carbon. Had a 1976 Oldsmobile that I remember replacing the exhaust system on three times. First time was kinda tough. Cut the clamps and beat stuff apart. Purdy typical for exhaust work.

Greased the clamps when I re-assembled that first time, used them again for two more mufflers.

Not sure what to make of that at this point? Hot/cold/wet/dry cycles?

"Wondering" what grease does at those temperatures?

Cheezywan
 

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Wondering what I should expect from a clean (as best as I know how) hunting rifle? I’m thinking of a Ruger #1 chambered 6 mm. Remington (that I hope I won’t need for the duration of this experiment)?
I’d run a couple of wet ones followed by several dry ones to confirm clean.
Propose to “flood the bore” and let it stand after that. Mobil 1 0W-40.
Rifle was built around 1975-1976 (says 1976 on the tube).
Can “we” learn anything from that?
I’m going to proceed along those lines as time permits. Sure hope I cause no harm to a real good rifle!
Suggestions?
Cheezywan
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I think what I would do would be wet down a bronze brush and give barrel 15 passes and then run patches in. If follow on patches come out black you have your answer.

After bronze brush won't loosen anything up leave it wet with Mobil 1 for a few days and see what happens with another patch.

I once left a carboned up barrel soaking with a plugged barrel with ER for a month and it still had carbon in it. It was a bear to get it going but it shot good afterwards.

I just got some 4 oz and 8 oz plastic bottles with flip top lids from USplastics.com which will be my oil carriers. Only like .70 each. Filled one today with 0W20.
 

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Good Humpy. Thanks for reply. Found myself lacking a 0.244 bronze brush? Know I had one. My trouble there.

Found a nylon one though, and started the process with that. 22 caliber one just don't fit tight enough.
Bronze brush is now on my list of stuff to make a minimum order and reduce shipping cost.

For now, I'll just let Mobil 1 set in the bore. I'll push a patch or two tommorrow and then keep it wet until I get a proper fitting bronze brush.

About the time I recieve new brushes, I'll find the ones I allready own. That is a purdy normal condition around here.

Thanks Humpy.

Cheezywan
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Yeah that happens to me all the time. I get brushes by the dozen as they are cheaper that way.

www.usplastic.com is the right address. the other one is wrong.

I just put a 4 oz bottle in car to take to match tomorrow.

On that barrel I flooded for months it had carbon and copper build up worst I have ever seen. My friend has been shooting it since the 70s and said it was gone. It was on a 1903 action in 22-250. I got some 03A3 Drill rifles and brought them back to service and I figured what the heck, a 2" barrel is better than no barrel so I borescoped it and it looked really bad.

I wasn't using Mobil 1 then and flooded it with Ed's Red which is my favorite all round lube after plugged the chamber. Before that I wore out two GI bore brushes on it and it still gave birth to black crub so in desparation I left it for a couple of months flooded and it still was giving it up. Finally the patches got shall we say less black and I borescoped it and the bore was pitted badly.

At any rate I set it back one thread and rechambered it and went out and shot it just screwed in a stock with a load I got out of I think it was an old Lyman book and dialed it in and a 3/4" group first thing ! ! ! ! ! I bore scoped it again and it is badly pitted which I suspect is galvanic action from copper left in the bore too long in high humidity conditions (where he lives for sure) and the bad deed was done.
 

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I pushed a Mobil 1 soaked patch through early AM today. Came out clean and oily.
So, either the nylon brush was not aggresive enough or my prior cleaning efforts were good enough.

Wondering what you think about the use of a "boresnake" used with Mobil 1 Humpy?
Lube,brush, and dry all in one pull.

Cheezywan
 

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Discussion Starter #28
chances are you had got it all out. One way to tell for sure is leave it wet with Mobil 1 for several day and run a dry one through.
Went to a match today and shot 69 rounds and did not clean it till I got through and found out the brush I had was crap so I did what I could and when I got home I got a good brush and four ten pass sessions finally got it to give me clean patches after I got out the residue.

I borescoped it after getting carbon out and there was just a trace of copper here and there so for good measures I ran three patches of Mothers through it and borescoped it again. Copper gone.

Rifle shot real well today and every shot was on call. Should have done much better on 600 reduced for 200. Was clean for first 12 shots and then barrel heat started to screw up the sight picture due to not having a mirage band on it.

Barrel now has 295 rounds on it and erosion gage did not move and it got right hot today. Don't know what temp was but my stop watch (stainless steel case) got so hot laying on mat that I could not hold the watch. Ammo was getting hot in sun as well.

I am looking forward to seeing how this barrel will look like at 500 and 1000 rounds down bore on the new chamber. In past chambering jobs with this same reamer at 500 rounds the barrel throat had advance to the point that I did not have to seat back the LC Match ammo as lands no longer marked the bullet.
 

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I thought I'd add some brief and very non-controlled observations I've made recently, concerning the ability of Boretech C4 Carbon Killer, Browning Stage-1 Carbon remover (which I believe to be re-packaged KG-1, but I can't prove it), and a little bit about Break-Free CLP.

I got a bottle of Boretech C4 the other day after talking with the company to ask whether Eliminator or C4 Carbon Killer is better as a dedicated carbon remover. They said C4 was better on carbon, and also that Eliminator is not simply C4 + a copper remover. So, I thought I'd compare it to the Browning carbon remover on my M1's op-rod piston. I cleaned the piston as well as I could back when I first got the gun with Hoppe's Elite. It actually worked pretty well, but it took a LOT of time and scrubbing with a plastic brush (was afraid I'd scratch it if I used a metal brush).

So, the M1 having a couple hundred rounds through it since last op-rod piston cleaning, I put a drop or two of Browning's product on one side of the face, and let it sit ~5 minutes as the bottle says. I then took a patch and rubber to see if the carbon would come off. It did, but not completely. There were areas that were cleaned completely, and areas that there was still a carbon cake that wouldn't be rubbed away.

Then, I wiped the C4 across the other side a couple times and let it sit, per instructions. Some of the carbon started coming off while I was applying the product. After sitting, the carbon all came off by wiping with a patch. A little elbow grease was needed, but nothing significant. I then finished cleaning off the entire piston face with the C4 product. It's completely clean now.

Neither product affected the parkerizing in any way. However, the Boretech product made the side of my had turn red and itchy, and shortly it started burning, from a couple drips that had run down there as I was working with the patches on the op-rod. Can't say whether it's just my personal skin that doesn't care for the product, or if it's a generalized thing, but it's something I'll need to keep OFF my skin. The Browning product does not have this side effect for me. I speculate that there could be very similar ingredients in the two products, but perhaps the Boretech is more concentrated. Don't know.

The Break-Free CLP 'test' comes here:
Last I had the gun out was Pearl Harbor Day. At the end of that session, and while the rifle was still nice and warm, I had sprayed a bunch of CLP down the barrel, let it run through until it stopped dripping, and then pulled a Bore Snake through the bbl 3 times. That's all I did, and then put it away. So, I thought I'd run some Boretech C4 through the bore the other night when I was cleaning the op-rod. I figured this would tell me whether my hot-gun CLP/Bore-Snake routine gets much carbon out or not. I did not have a nylon brush to follow the Boretech C4, so I just patched it on as directed, let it sit, and then pushed dry patches through. There was no evidence of carbon/powder fouling on the patches, but the first one showed extremely blue, indicating that Boretech's Carbon Killer will etch copper pretty effectively, too. I get the same results with the Browning carbon remover in other rifles.

So, my thoughts at this point are:
Boretech's C4 carbon killer is stronger as a carbon remover than the Browning Step 1 carbon remover. Browning (and KG Products) recommends following the application of Step 1 with their Step 2 'non-abrasive' bore cleaner, which I think would eliminate any performance gap between the two products. I think that combination would also eliminate the need for a dedicated copper remover in many/most circumstances.

Second observation is that if a person cleans their barrel while it's still warm with CLP and a Bore Snake, there may be no need of a strong carbon remover for most of us. To get every pore clean, I have previously found no adequate substitute for an abrasive paste (or 'non-abrasive' as they all call them).

I may run some C4 through a barrel I cleaned a couple weeks ago with Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner, just to see whether I get any carbon or copper indications. I'm quite impressed with the Gunslick foam, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
 

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I'll be interested to hear the results. I suspect the high surfactant level in the C4 took the oil out of your skin. Some folks respond the same way to strong shampoos and can't use them. Just wear disposable gloves.

Try leaving the C4 in a barrel with maybe a bore plug and muzzle plug for a few days to see if any additional carbon patches out afterward. I found the long wait can have a profound effect with Gunzilla's carbon removing properties, as I described in post #2 in this thread. I'm curious if it does with C4 as well?
 

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I've used Slip 2000 Carbon Killer before to clean M14 gas pistons out and to get the carbon collar of the back side of Garand op-rods, but it does mark the Parkerizing or partly thins it. Gunzilla is slower acting, but does not bother the finish. I note that Boretech, which makes my favorite bore cleaner (Eliminator) now has a carbon solvent out. KG makes one, too, but I think maybe it's oriented to black powder guns. I haven't yet tried either. What's remarkable to me is the Gunzilla (a vegetable product) and Bortech products essentially are non-toxic, are biodegradable, and have no offensive odor.

Gunzilla is available in a couple of different size pump sprayers. I carry the small one to the range in my cleaning kit, and at the end of the session I tilt the muzzle down a pump a couple of squirts into the chamber and let it run down the barrel. I put in a chamber plug or a couple of big patches in the chamber, and at the muzzle a Neoprene stopper. Those are just to keep the action and gun case from picking up Gunzilla. Cleaning later becomes a breeze.

It will be interesting if it turns out Mobil 1 can really do much the same thing as the Gunzilla or other carbon softeners. As you point out, it's a fraction of the cost.
Nick if you have a problem with M14 stuff, let me know. I have a ton of tricks.
 

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Thanks. Since this thread was last active I've tried the Mobil 1 and found it does quite well. Carbon has become a thing I mainly dissolve rather than than scrape or drill.
 

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I've had very good luck in removing carbon with spray-on, foaming thread cutting oil, intended for use with pipe threading machines.

I tried it on a patch one time on a clean barrel - and was amazed at the amount of black carbon that came out of that clean barrel.

It is, I believe, a sulfur-based cutting oil. - I got mine at Harbor Freight for a very small outlay in cash. Apparently it breaks loose carbon that regular cleaning products leave behind.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Cheezywan,
Sorry I missed your question about bore snakes and just spotted it looking at a response for this thread.

I have one or two of them but never use them for fear of damaging muzzle. There is a copy of the Swiss Army Manual and it shows picture of a muzzle and warns of muzzle damage from the material rubbing the muzzle.

When I arrived at the Army Small Cal Lab and was assigned to Roscoe Picard for training one of his responsibilities was "Cleaning Equipment and Supplies" and eventually I handled it the same as he kept the pistols/revolvers,holsters and I got assigned rifles, shotguns and SMGs.

On cleaning equipment you guys have probably noticed the Army has stayed with cotton patches and semi-stiff cleaning rods.

Why no plastic patches or synthetic patches.Test methodology tend to duplicate worst case scenarios troops in combat areas are liked to encounter thusly tests were run on hot barrels and the patches that were not cotton tended to melt and the residue left in the barrel was likely to harden up as barrel cooled leaving a potential bore obstruction and damage to barrel when follow on round was fired.

The worst thing cotton can do is catch fire and leave trace residue.

In combat scenarios it is not uncommon to fall and get a muzzle full of dirt/mud. A rope rod will do disengage such. The jointed rod is not perfect but can be used to push out mud/debris. Roscoe was constantly looking for a rod that would not damage the bore but never found one.

As soon as he told me about the bore obstruction that hit home as I remembered I was lowering my rifle out of a tree stand to a friend and all we had was 20 lb test fishing line but it had a small knot in it and broke right there and there went my 94 Win muzzle down. I had a one piece rod in my truck I carried all the time and that was no problem but had I not had it I would have had to come home or go buy one.

I tend to stay away from exotic chemicals as I remember being warned by a barrel manufacturer that cleaning with an ammonia based solution (Sweets Bore Cleaner) and followed by Hoppies developed a chemical reaction that attacked the steel.

For liquid bore cleaners I run Ed's Red and Mobil 1. I also like greased patches (I usee Grease Auto and Artillery and Grease Aircraft Wide Temperature Range) which for me worked out better during a match as you don't have to worry about a bottle turning over and losing your bore cleaner. I pre grease patches and carry them in little metal can, take them out and wrap around a 22 or 6.5 bronze brush (depending on whether I cut the patches in half) and run them.

I was at a flea market once and a guy had a case of 10,000 2X2 military patches and I jumped on the whole case.

What I find is the quicker I clean after the last shot the easier the crud comes out and it is also faster.

Also during a HP match I had just started running a patch through after every yard line when the barrel was hot and we were headed for the pits and that worked very well. Then I had the wreck and that ceased since but will resume if I am lucky though I have talked to three shooters who have had the same surgery and they were not able to return.

It is bulky but I carry my rod in a 1 1/2" PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end and a cleanout cap with screw plug on the other and that keeps it clean and protects it from getting bent in truck/truck.
 
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Ever since I bought my 12ga semi-auto shotgun, I've read about carbon build-up on the piston. Alittle research had me buying and using Otis 012-C carbon remover. Magic! Granted, I do not shoot as much as some, but, this really works well. It was designed for AR type platforms. For lube, I use Lucas gun oil. Are you fella's familiar with the Otis carbon remover? It works very good for my type of shooting; upland birds and trap once in a while.
 

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Haven't tried that one. The fastest and most aggressive carbon remover I've seen is Slip 2000 Carbon Killer. But it will etch a Parkerized finish some if you leave it too long. I found that out taking carbon cake off a Garand op-rod piston head, where it builds up on the underside of the head. But it did take it all off and reveal the old rust pits underneath.

In addition to the Mobil 1, I've also found Gunzilla works well if you leave it long enough (weeks in a bad case). I also used Bore Tech C4 carbon remover which works really well with black powder fouling and any bore carbon. I've not had occasion to try it on a carbon cake.

I would love to work out a standard carbon cleaning test for solvents. Maybe a group of M14 gas pistons after a standard number of a standard round put through them.
 

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I am still giggling over the idea of hacksawing off the end of the barrel, rather than finding a way and just cleaning the ridge out of the bore. There is a product I use on my kitchen stove designed to get it all bright and shiny after burnt grease and carbon builds up near the burners. It has cloth wipes that really cut through the grime and make things shiny again. I tried it on my stainless Ruger which after a decade or two of plinking had burn rings at the cylinder front which Hoppes had no effect on. The stove cleaner cloth took the burn rings right off in seconds. So like some others here I don't really see the problem.
 

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I am still giggling over the idea of hacksawing off the end of the barrel, rather than finding a way and just cleaning the ridge out of the bore.
Humpy stated "I inserted the gage in the muzzle and saw it went in a bit far". That's saying there's rifling wear at the muzzle, not conducive to best accuracy.

I've cut off barrels with a hacksaw. Not having a lathe, I squared up the muzzle by draw filing. Mann's Flight of the Bullet taught me that a muzzle NOT perpendicular to the bore will not harm accuracy, just shifts the point of impact.

There is a product I use on my kitchen stove designed to get it all bright and shiny after burnt grease and carbon builds up near the burners. It has cloth wipes that really cut through the grime and make things shiny again. I tried it on my stainless Ruger which after a decade or two of plinking had burn rings at the cylinder front which Hoppes had no effect on. The stove cleaner cloth took the burn rings right off in seconds. So like some others here I don't really see the problem.
There are many household products that will quickly remove carbon. The problem is that they are generally highly acidic, alkaline or abrasive materials. Therefor, they also quickly remove bluing, corrode bores and other undesirable effects on gun metals. Yes, a few seconds on the face of a stainless cylinder is not a big deal. Take that same substance, leave it in the bore of a chrome moly barrel and boresope it afterwards.

Then get ready to replace the barrel if you had any hopes of target grade accuracy.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I used Ed's Red for about everything and make up 1 1/2 gallons at a mixing and have about three quart size spray bottles around my shop and some more tilt mouth bottles with in it.

Only thing I found so far I can use it for is FL sizing cases. It works great on fire ants though.
 
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