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Discussion Starter #1
I'll admit right off the bat that I've always equated power with effectiveness, and have turned up my nose at the 9MM Luger for over 40 years. So, I recently read a very thorough article in the 2002 Guns and Ammo rating all of the duty rounds on the basis of field experience and one-shot-stops. The top 10 all made sense...except for the fact that the Federal 9MM +P+ came in #5, right behind the 45 ACP 185 gr Golden Saber +P and the 230 gr Hydra-Shok. These big bore stoppers scored 96 and 95% one shot stops, and the little 9MM scored 93%, ahead of the 41 Mag, 357 Sig and 44 Mag.

This is not based on the obvious fact that it is a lot easier to hit with multiple shots from a 9MM...its 1 shot!!

Within a couple of hours I dug out my CZ 75BD and worked up a few +P+ 115 grain XTP loads with Power Pistol, and 1325 fps came easily from the 4.7 inch bbl. The 125 gr XTPs topped 1305 fps with equal ease. The 115gr loads are pretty close to 38,500 PSI, right around the +P+ factory ammo. The 125s are near 34,000 as the exact same load and COL listed by Alliant does 1250 fps from a 4 inch bbl.

Are these pressures safe for long term use in a modern 9MM like the CZ 75?

If so, my 44 Special Bulldog and 357 Snubbie are going back in the safe...I can actually hit something with the CZ!!
 

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The problem with the "one-shot-stop" testing is that it is full of crap. The theory is not even good. There are so many factors in stopping a man, or an animal of any size, for that matter. The idea that one person was stopped with one hit, while an identical hit on another does not stop him is that such can be duplicated in the field. Hogwash. It is totally unpredictible and dependant upon the "hittee" and not the "Hitter" in most instances.

The best way to stop anything is with tissue distruction, and maybe you can get lucky and do sufficient nerve damage to stop him sooner.

dclark
 

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Bullfeathers !

Hi, I normally do not repond to posts about stopping power comparisons because it can turn into a heated argument of big & slow versus small and fast. But, I would like to point out that any rating system that rates 9mm Luger a BETTER stopper than .41 Mag, 357 SIG, or .44 mag, is flawed. If you were to take your hot loaded 9mm and a 4" 44mag loaded with a 180 gr factory load, like Federal fore example, and shoot both guns at steel targets, which one would knock down the steel with MUCH more authority ? Then, shoot each of them into a 5 gallon jug full of water. Which one would be way more impressive that the other? BTW, I have actually done this. The 9mm loaded to plus P with good bullets is a very efficient cartridge, and I have carried one for defense many times, but it AIN'T even in the same league as a .44 mag. I have killed 2 wild boars and a Ram in Tennesee, all with .44 mags. If I had showed up at the hunting lodge with a 9mm, they would told me to "go home, boy". ha ha. To get serious, the variables are far too numerous to say one cartridge is "X amount" percentage better that another. You have to let your common sense overide the gunwriter BS in what a friend of mine calls, "the comic books" (gun magazines). Now, before I close, I will say that your 4.7" 9mm loaded with hot XTPs is probably a better choice, or at least more efficient, than either of the other 2 guns you mentioned, but don't take the "one shot stop" BS too seriously. Gunwriters have to make a living too. :)

Regards,
Neal
 

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Since the only thing I would use is my .44mag or .45acp or .45 long colt or .458 BFR or my .480 ruger for self defense I wont comment about a weak 9mm :D
 

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There does seem to be data that shows that multiple shots tends to even out the stopping power debate.

One way of looking at +P 9mm is that it is basically loaded to NATO standard (which is close to what the Germans used back when the round was designed...its the US loads that got neutered). +P+ is a bit warm...and the unsettling thing is that even though your handloads match the velocity, they may not be mathing the pressure of the published loads.

I doubt that those loads will beat the gun to death quickly...will accelerate wear, but factory loads at the same leel would do the same thing.

Problem come sin reloading. As the brass ages, it gets harder and more likely to split...and not just the necks, but the HEADS/WED area gets work hardened. IF you keep using those relaods, would suggest you limit the times you load a case to that level...then keep it for reduced loads and buy new brass for your hot loads.
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Have always been of the opinion that if you have to resort to the hottest possible loading to get the results you want, would be better to go to a bigger case.
 

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Not to stir the pot. I think that the reason that there is little data regarding the .41 and .44 mags in the one-shot stopping data is simple. There are very few law enforcement officers that carry revolvers, let alone revolvers chambered for these rounds. There are also very few, comparativley, that carry the .45 in relation to the 9mm or 40 Short & Weak. The data would be wieghed in favor of the rounds that are actually used. MOST people, if shot with a 9mm of the +P+ variety, would likely have the wind taken out of their sails in a major way. The basis for the data is where you need to look in these matters.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
This is GREAT!! I thought this would rile a few folks up...been dull around here. :) I am pulling your chains a bit with these data, but they are published by a very reputable author and backed up by a LOT of data.

No, I don't believe a 9MM has more stopping power than a 44 Mag either. I think the data say that 9 out of 10 humans are stopped by any of these rounds, and the other 10% are governed by chance or unique circumstances. In addition the definition of one shot stops is based on the law enforcement criteria that the aggressor was shooting at the time he was hit and fired no more shots. If he ran, he went 10 feet or less.

So, we really are not talking about dropping a wild boar here. Nine out of 10 times when you get shot you are incapacitated, or choose to quit. In these cases, there just is not much difference between a 44 Mag and a hot 9MM. In the remaining 10% a hit in the vital zone at close range by any of these rounds ends the fight. My guess is that in combat situations, the 9 hits the vital area more often than its big brothers.

Nearly all of the +P 9MM loads use Alliant Power Pistol powder, which drives a 125 gr bullet to 1235 fps from a 4 inch bbl at 34,000 PSI. Since the SAAMI spec is 35,000 PSI, this load is technically not even a +P load. The same load likes a 5 inch bbl much better and tops 1290 fps at the same pressure level.

My personal judgement is that this is just over the threshold of "enough power" for me to be confident, especially with Gold Dots or XTPs. The more imortant consideration is that I shoot this round extremely well, and for hours on end, in the CZ 75. Even the "+P" rounds are just a pleasant pop, and I can always see the bullet hit the target as the gun returns to battery. When I develop bad habits, I just top it with the 22 LR adaptor and run several hundred rounds through it and I'm back in the X ring.

All of this results in the ability to hit an 8.5 by 11 inch sheet of paper 5 times in less than 3 seconds at 15 paces, concentrating mostly on the target and location of the front sight.

I don't doubt that there are folks out there who can do this with a 44 or 41 MAG, but I can't. If given the responsibility to teach a new shooter hand gun defense skills, this is exactly the gun/ammo combination I would choose.

If we had a little wager, and each gave 5 new shooters 20 hours of instruction, it would be very unfair of me to insist than you had to use a 44, 41 or 357 MAG or 45 ACP in a scored match between my 5 and your 5. Then again, you might actually TRY...anyone want to put up their HOUSE??

:D
 

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Guess I came off sounding more pro-big bore than I actually am. I actually don't have a giant preference, have both the big bores and the small ones.

One of the reasons the data is for one shot stops is becasue there probqbly isn'tenough variation for a serious discussion when multiple shots are figured in. Can debate the reasons for that, but it seems once you've tagged a guy with 3-4 shots, it doesn't make a large differnce what you tagged him with.

this ain't deer hunting, there is no 'pride' to be had in a one-shot stop...if you walk away, you win, no matter how you did it.
 

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I guess I'll throw my 2-cents worth in. IMHO, any time you have to go to +P or +P+ in order to get a specific round to perform well, it's time to go to another round. If the 9mm isn't working in a situation, move up to the .357, .40 or .41. To load a gun to pressures that may be unsafe, or that it was not designed for is asking for trouble. At that point you have exceeded the established parameters of that firearm and instead of trying to make it do something it wasn't designed to do, get a gun that was made to do what it is you want to do. Don't try to drive a nail with a pair of pliers.

It's all about bullet placement anyway, not the so-called effectiveness of a particular round. If you can put a 9mm exactly where you want with regularity, you will achieve one-shot stops. I have seen an elk poorly hit with a .375 H&H turn and run for hundreds of yards and yet cattle are dropped in slaugher houses every day with one precision shot from a .22 LR.

One of the big problems law enforcement has encountered recently is the substitution of large capacity sidearms in lieu of training. The idea is to give the LEOs high firepower with "effective" rounds and this will make up for a lack of precision shot placement which requires the expendature of lots of ammo at the range, which is beyond most agency budgets these days. IT DON'T WORK!

Carry and shoot what you shoot best and you will be effective, and above all else, practise, practise, practise.
 

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Currently work a a sedate hosptial, but have worked at the local trama center. This is New Orleans, and it is so busy, the military send in MD's to train on GSW (at least before Iraq, there just wen't enough military GSW to learn on).

Can promise you, the gang-banger spray and pray works for what it is used for...it also takes out a lot of non-combatants, but that isn't a concern for those doing the shooting. It won't work for law enforcement or for self defence, but it does work for murder or assassination.

When a guy showes up in the " accident room" ( a nice name for the "hot" ER...where all the bleeding and nearly dead go...the heart attacks, broken bones, and other "minor" stuff go to a regular ER) with mulitple hits, he very-very seldom comes back out of the hospital (except in Coronor's van). Doesn't seem to make a difference if he's hit 5 times with a .22 , 9mm, or .44.

But death isn't stopping power...spary and pray works to kill people (eventually), it won't work to stop them.
 

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A better statistic would be to use the numbers from the hospitals/Morges that show how many come in alive vs. dead and from what caliber-I'm willing to bet most walk in-still alives are from 9MM vs any of the bigger calibers!!:D Of all the ones I've seen on TV the only ones I've seen survive are 9MM hits I have never seen someone with a 45ACP, 44Mag ect. survive-then again most gangbangers don't shoot the expensive shuff do they!!!:rolleyes: The 9mm is the chioce of crimminals for a reason- cheap plentiful supply!
 

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Interesting comments. I was always taught, BIGGER isn't always better. Shot placement is BEST. IMO you shoot what feels comfortable. Like stated earlier, practice-practice-practice. Not many have been involved in a shoot-out. If it happens, your hands better wrap around something that feels good and you can depend on.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wow!! How did we get to the morgue, gangbangers and "spray and Pray"?? Makes me feel dirty even talking about a 9MM.

:(

Here are a few accurate, unemotional items:

1. Both power Pistol and Blue Dot drive 125 gr XTPs 1300 fps from the 4.7 inch bbl of a CZ 75 at 35000 PSI, which is the SAAMI spec for the 9MM Luger. It is not a +P round. The 6.6 grains of Power Pistol recommended by Alliant seems to be the best load.

2. This duplicates the 357 Mag from a 2 inch snubby.

3. CZ 75BDs can still be had for $389, and they come with a 15 round and a 10 round magazine. The CZ 75's was originally a competition model, and still is. The BD is a police model with manual de-cocker, and the most popular duty firearm in all of Europe. When the US went to the 9MM as a service round, the CZ 75 was rated #1 hands down, but the cold war and the wall were there and supply could not be guaranteed...Browning got the nod. The frame and slide are so strong that they house the 40 S&W with no changes other than the barrel and bushings.

My point is really more about technology and the evolution of the 9MM, given improvements in propellants, bullets and firearms. The modern versions in the right pistol are squarely parked at the threshold of power required for defense work.
 

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Loader, don't feel bad. Heck, this has been fun. :D
 

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Being picky...but there is a good bit of difference between the 9mm Browning and the .40. They did some reesign work, the .40 has an "extra" locking lug on the barrel (and the slide has the recess to fit it) and the slide was made a bit thicker and heavier...not a slam to the Browning, i't ****ed strong in 9mm, but the .40version is beefed up.

I actually agree with you, 115gr. at 1300fps is a good defence load.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I have a lot of respect for the 40...the 155 gr HP was ranked #1 in the aforementioned article. My Ruger PC 40 with 16 inch bbl drives these factory loads to 1455 fps and 1650 fps is easily achieved at the same pressures with Longshot handloads. Local police departments are getting these to replace the reduced recoil 12 GA option. The PC digests everything flawlessly and holds zero when you kick it around, especially with the ghost ring sights. Recoil is zip and the Ruger pistol mags fit.
 

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Gentlemen,

Interesting comments, all. I learn so much when I read your words, always driven with conviction.

I am very familiar with the 9mm, and have been for a few years. I know its numbers, +P and otherwise, and where numbers are useful for comparison, I don't place much stock in fps or MzEn for any indication of stopping power.

By the same token, I take the stopping power averages as published with a grain of salt, as the survey methods have an uncontrollable human element that tends to exaggerate. The author is a very credible individual, and this exaggeration is done through no fault of his, but as shooting a man is a very traumatic expirence, and the details tend to be magnified by the subjects being surveyed. The one pearl that we can get from these averages are the mid-power rounds tend to do better than the full power rounds, because they are no doubt shot with more competency.

Good things about the 9mm: the shape and power level of the round make it the most reliable feeding automatic pistol round (with the possible exception of the 357 Sig, of which I have no expirience). The low recoil makes it real easy to track the front sight, even in full recoil- articulating the difference between spray and pray vs. aimed fire, very fast. In its light wieght +P hollowtips, it is one of the most unlikely bullets to go through the bad guy and take out the Orphan carrying Nun right behing the bad guy. Ammo is cheap and very consistant, I have not seen much difference in quality of round even at bargain basement prices, I think Mil Specing, has a great deal to do with this.

Now, is it going to knock someone off its feet? Well, no, but no pistol will, gunfights are for two handed guns, pistols are the last resort option, and much better than a sharp stick. Although I do remember a 95 pound Somlian soaking up like nine 5.56 rounds before he quit wiggling. I 'm wondering what pistol round would have been a fight stopper in this instance?

My thoughts, good shooting.

Steve
 

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The 9mm is a common handgun and easy to shoot, low recoil.
I used one in the Marshals office , never felt is was a good hard hitting handgun though, very accurate, and of course shot placement is no#1...I now carry a Glock S&W 40 cal model 27 compact, nice and easy to carry, I carry in the small of my back with a inside holster, the 40 has a little more than the nine, bigger meplat and just as accurate, sometime's I forget Im carrying it;) One reason law enforcement don't carry 44 mag's, big wheel guns... is most people on the average are not good enough to be accurate enough to shoot them, just like the colt 45 acp, one of the best protection cal's ever, and there is many GI'S that will attest to this, but there are many shooters can't hit the side of a barn with one, this is why they reduced the cal's to reasonable recoiling handguns, sig's/glock's/colts's semi's gas released, for better accuracy.
In doing so loss some Impact power smaller meplat's, in tern your felon or victim can survive the shot to take recourse to protect themselves, not good, if I have to shoot someone to save a life from a felon,When I shoot I want him down for the count, not shooting back. I think they should let officials use what they want with in reason as long as they can pass there shooting trials, I would of rather carry my 44Mag or 454 Casull revolver with double speed loaders back in the days ;) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.
 

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Rmouleart

I never really thought much about why law enforcement carries the 9mm, but you may be correct. It is easy to shoot and has a low recoil. Back in the early 70's I was issued a S&W 38. A week after I hit the streets an officer was shot and killed by an ex-con with a 357. His partner emptied (6 shots) his duty weapon (38 revolver) into the suspects back as he ran down a flight of stairs. Six rounds before the suspect fell dead. I remember seeing another street officer about a week later carrying his personal 357 in his duty holster. Now, that caliber gun was not issued because it was considered to be too powerful and caused too much destruction. Back then we knew we were outgunned. I also agree you should be able to carry your handgun of choice. If you qualify with a 9 auto or a 44 wheel gun that's what you should carry. When the auto guns became "the carry gun" most guys switched to the 45 S&W. The department only offered the 9 or 45. Of course law enforcement still has to contend with the ACLU and other cry babies. That's where private citizens are lucky. They have no limitations when selecting a carry weapon.
 

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Luger loaded the 9mm down for the Kaiser

In one of the posts, the writer contends that U.S. ammo manufacturers loaded the 9x19mm down. Actually, the military mandated change from 7.62 or .30 Luger to 9mm severly affected the timing of the toggle link action of the Luger. To offset the faster cycle time the velocity of the 9mm was reduced for the Luger. At least that is how I understand the story. Apparently the U.S. version of the 9mm was loaded for the Luger also.
 
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