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All of that seems such a long way from the old black powder days, but when you think about it, it's only been about 120 years away. 120 years in technology years is kind of like 1,000 years though. It would be cool if we could see into the future and see what kinds of hand held weapons would be possible even 100 years from now.
Blackhawk,
Right now lasers over a certain power level are controlled like class III weapons. While you can get and use them it is for machine cutting tools. I doubt we will ever have "guns" that leave no trace of the gun in or near the person shot. I doubt that the military will trust the field soldier with such a device.
Who knows, in 100 years we may be back to using bows and spears... ;)
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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And with the right setting, your deer can be rare, medium, or well done before you even gut it ;)
 

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Lasers have fascinated me since I read of them as a kid and saw my first at a science fair in the '50s.
I have green pointer for showing stars, comets, planets and constellations to visitors unused to looking at the sky. (It's amazing how many kids have never been shown the North star). Last month, it was used a lot to point out the comet. Even kids that had never looked through binoculars could see the green circles being drawn in the sky around the amazing ,twin-tailed green comet.
A Crimson Trace on a Ruger LCP is a marvel.

In the '70s, laser light shows were popular in planetariums. Gates Planetarium in Denver had several that showed what light and computers could do. Those shows were upped several notches by laser shows at Red Rocks Amphitheater and then on the north wall of Longs Peak in Rocky Mountain Nat. Park. Unfortunately, the noise Nazis took them over.....
 
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The first laser I ever saw was a ruby rod laser built into a "Flash Gordon" ray gun. The toy was a flashlight but my dads friend had fitted it with a low power ruby laser. He popped a black balloon that was inside a translucent white balloon. This was also in the 50's because I was not near 10 years old. I started researching everything I could about lasers. At that time they were all crystal rods wrapped in a flash lamp, usually a typical green color and the laser was IR making it invisible. The next breakthrough was the carbon dioxide high power lasers.
Today I think it would be difficult to find any area that is not touched by the technology.
 

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Fascinating stuff.
The ongoing development of energy dense batteries makes the possibilities of usable hand held weapons more realistic. Still a ways to go.
rail guns...
”given the amount of current dumping at firing, most definitely do not have unlimited velocity. Things melt with that kind of current.”
Very true. The issue is not the projectile; it is the rails. Evidently they last for a few shots and then must be replaced.
pete
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I wish I could remember the title of the book or the author that I'd read years ago. Sadly, I loaned it out and never got it back. Good books are something else that I had to learn to never loan. Anyway, it was basically about the heyday that began with the advent of smokeless powder. America was also early in the industrial reveloution and things in all industries were changing rapidly. I really enjoy reading about this time period in America, as it was a very exciting time with a lot going on. I'm not sure that we will ever see such a time period again. Been wanting to research and see when the first Chronos came out where people could tell how fast a projectile was really going. Seems the first time that I ever heard of one was in the 70's but I am sure someone had access to them before then. Wonder if they had some other method of guesstimating velocity before then? Did someone for instance hit a stop watch and do math to guess speed??
 

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Bullet speed was measured by how much a duffel bag full of sand moved on bullet impact. Very imprecise but the more test made the better the results. There was also stop watch timing of bullets shot horizontally over water.
Hatcher's Notebook has quite a lot of the early test and evaluations.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Bullet speed was measured by how much a duffel bag full of sand moved on bullet impact. Very imprecise but the more test made the better the results. There was also stop watch timing of bullets shot horizontally over water.
Hatcher's Notebook has quite a lot of the early test and evaluations.
After my last post I did a little research on chronos. Site said a guy invented a so called chrono as early as 1707, which of course was not real reliable. It said the the first really modern chronos were invented in the early 50's. The book that I speak of, was written in the 50's or 60's and was gifted to me in the mid 70's. It was a real interesting read.
 

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The only book I can think of that you're missing is the una-bomber manifesto. I see Amazon has it under several names.

I used to read encyclopedias for fun (always hated TV) and then start delving deeper in something that interested me. Like, how did they measure the speed of light. Fascinating!! There are patent drawings for the mechanisms used.
 
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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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The ballistic pendulum chronograph was quite accurate if you could keep up with the math. A 1949 or 50 American Rifleman had plans for one and how to determine fps "the easy way". A string was fastened to the pendulum (of known weight on a known arc path) to "gauge distance" and with the known mass of the projectile and some hocus pocus math stuff the fps was easily computed.

I recreated one for high school physics class but we used steel balls and dropped them down Hot Wheels track, not bullets.

WARNING!!! Reloads described herein have NOT been completely verified nor published in any reloading manual and should not be tried with out thorough knowledge of reloading and its hazards of done incorrectly. You have only yourself to blame it you screw up.

As for velocity using light for caliber bullets in over bore cartridges? To avoid early throat damage it requires the use of the slowest powders possible*. H4350 for instance isn't supposed to work with 58 grain Vmax's out of a .243, but it does. IMR4350 isn't supposed to work with 50 grain BlitzKings out of a 22-250 but it does. IMR7828 isn't supposed to work with 85 grain BT Varmints out of a 25-06 but it does.

Of course, carefully timed firing helps prolong throat and barrel life and fire fights with mobbed up ground dwelling rodents should be avoided or at least conducted from 350+ yards with the appropriate back-up should a couple tunnel in for a close up grenade toss.



RJ

*as tested by the bullet manufactures at my request so some data may not be available in stores yet)
 

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"1.0 caliber, .50 caliber, and two .17 caliber two stage light gas guns are housed in the Remote Hypervelocity Test Laboratory. These guns use gunpowder and highly compressed hydrogen to accelerate projectiles at speeds up to 27,500 feet per second to simulate impacts of particles on spacecraft and satellite materials and components."

Two Stage Light Gas Guns
 

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I read somewhere that 100 + years ago, many saw 3,000 FPS a barrier to be broken. If I am not mistaken, Savage's .250-3000 was the first commercially available cartridge to do this. Seems that I've seen charts where some have broken 4,000 FPS and read where someone took the .458 Winchester, necked it down to .224 but it was not really doable. I also read where the gasses from burning powder only expands at so many FPS, so that a bullet can never go faster than that no matter what.
So my question is basically in two parts 1) Has 4,000 FPS been obtained with any real accuracy? and 2) Which modern day cartridge holds the present speed record?
Seem's Iread that newton developed the 250-3000 for Savage. He did it with the idea of using a 100gr bullet but savage went with the 85gr bullet as it was the first cartridge to hit 3000fps and they figured to capitalize on that. Can't remember where I read that, might have been in the P.O. Ackley handbook.
 

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I saw a simpler version of what Mainspring described. It was in a laboratory that did contract work for the government. It had all sorts of odd guns. A 10 or 12-inch airgun used to shoot supermarket whole chickens at aircraft windshields to see if they could withstand the impact, for example. The high-speed light gas gun was for testing satellite armor. It had a 2-part 40-foot barrel about ten inches in diameter that road on air bearing cradles to enable an operator to move them. The back half was a 40 mm chamber. Into that was placed a pound of powder and a 40 mm Delrin piston to be shot down the tube. At the halfway point the bore narrowed to .50 caliber. Into that, they inserted a Nylon split sabot that held a 1/4" aluminum sphere that was the projectile. Behind the sabot, they placed a 60,000 psi burst disc. They then bolted the two halves of the barrel together via integral flanges. The rear half of the barrel was then evacuated and the air replaced with helium (hydrogen is lighter and would give more speed, but this was an indoor lab where the post-muzzle explosion would be unacceptable). When they fired the 40 mm case full of powder, the piston compressed the helium until it ruptured the burst disc, sending the sabot down the second 20 ft section, where it reached 17,000 fps. The piston was extruded down to squirt partway into the 50 cal section of the barrel, but the example I saw stopped about halfway in. A few inches forward of the muzzle was a piece of heavy armor plate with a hole through the center that stopped the separating sabot halves, but not the little aluminum ball. The ball and its actions were captured by high-speed microsecond-ish flash x-ray emitters to record what was happening to the satellite shielding on film. I've forgotten how the gun vented the propellant gases.
 
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I dont see anyone talking about the 204 and there may be a reason since its been awhile for me but when it first became popular it was claiming 4000+ FPS. I have a couple and I really love them but I have not studied the data on them as we just use them to kill nuisance critters.
 

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The Shadow
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My primary varmint gun for the past many years is a 204. I don't run nuclear speeds, but i kill a lot of vermin;)
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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My primary varmint gun for the past many years is a 204. I don't run nuclear speeds, but i kill a lot of vermin;)
Yeah, but you have a '65 Kenmore too. 😝

Having four .223 bolt guns, I kinda don't need a .204 really, much . . . . . but if given one I'd probly hafta shoot it if it came with ammo too.

RJ
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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Is that a hint - I couldn't tell!!
;)

Ken
 
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Speed doesn't kill critters. It is holes in vital parts and blood loss that kills. Speed didn't almost exterminate the buffalo either. I quit worshiping at that alter many moons ago. A good hunter just gets closer.
 
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